How Great is Sam Langford?

[Dubblechin]

Older guys dedicated to "preserving" boxing history don't tend to rate newer fighters over older fighters ... as that ranking points out.

I'd take all the top heavyweights today over Sam Langford. I'd take all the top heavyweights a decade ago over him. I'd take all the top heavyweights in the 90s, 80s and 70s, over him. The top heavyweights of the 60s over Langford. And on and on. Like I said, he wasn't even the best heavyweight of his era.

That's not even counting the top light heavyweights (or cruiserweights or even super middleweights) ... I'd take over him.

So, as far as where he stacks up head-to-head over the last 100 years or so, it isn't very high at all.

We've all seen the same films of him. He was fine for his era. But he wasn't even the best then.

My point stands.

[QueensburyRules]

Older guys dedicated to "preserving" boxing history don't tend to rate newer fighters over older fighters ... as that ranking points out.

I'd take all the top heavyweights today over Sam Langford. I'd take all the top heavyweights a decade ago over him. I'd take all the top heavyweights in the 90s, 80s and 70s, over him. The top heavyweights of the 60s over Langford. And on and on. Like I said, he wasn't even the best heavyweight of his era.

So, as far as where he stacks up head-to-head over the last decades, not at all.

My point stands.

- - U wif a marshmallow stuck on the point on U noggin is it now?

[Dubblechin]

- - U wif a marshmallow stuck on the point on U noggin is it now?

No, just a realist.

That's not even counting all the light heavyweights (or cruiserweights) over the decades I'd have taken over him.

He was fine for his era. We've all seen the same films of him. There's no mystery there.

[Rosco3387]

'

He chose choice A and did not fight the best white fighters out there aside O'Brein who he had a new draw with with and Willard who knocked him out. He fought the shell of Jeffries. Jack didn't fight Gunboat Smith who KO'd him in an exciton match and beaten men he gave title shots to, or McCarty view was the best of the " White hopes " while he was alive.

Sam's denied the chance at the title. I doubt it would have mattered if he was white. He was ducked on ability.

You didn't read the post carefully... I qualified the reason he didn't want to fight Sam...It was not his color per se. Johnson fought to make money in professional prize fighting... His competition was typical for most average heavyweight champs... Not the best, not the worse.

[Dr. Z]

You didn't read the post carefully... I qualified the reason he didn't want to fight Sam...It was not his color per se. Johnson fought to make money in professional prize fighting... His competition was typical for most average heavyweight champs... Not the best, not the worse.

It was not the money as he made little vs. Jim battling Johnson and NOTHING vs Frank Moran. You see the fights were in France and they wanted to see Jeannette or Langford in the ring. Politics be gone! The French stripped Johnson of his title for not fighting them. He did not make that much v O'brien, Ross, and other crap fights he had . Surely he had offers to except other fights and is folly to assume all of them was the promoter's fault, and equally folly to assume the fighters themselves would deny the chance for a big pay day and the title. He got paid vs Jeffries ofcourse. Show me what he made vs the above men and I'll show you the offers were there to fight the talent.

I disagree Johnson had bad competition in title fights and does not rate as average in comparison to tenured lineal champions. Men who had a few title fights. Not even close.

Jack Johnson had a signed offer to fight Sam Langford, he back out of the fight and never fought Langford, Jeanette, Mcvey, Smith, McCarty or Wills the talent from 1909-1915 during his title run. What was his best two wins?! In your opinion there are who? Not as good as prime version of these men ( 1909-1915 ) that much I'm sure of!

[Rosco3387]

It was not the money as he made little vs. Jim battling Johnson and NOTHING vs Frank Moran. You see the fights were in France and they wanted to see Jeannette or Langford in the ring. Politics be gone! The French stripped Johnson of his title for not fighting them. He did not make that much v O'brien, Ross, and other crap fights he had . Surely he had offers to except other fights and is folly to assume all of them was the promoter's fault, and equally folly to assume the fighters themselves would deny the chance for a big pay day and the title. He got paid vs Jeffries ofcourse. Show me what he made vs the above men and I'll show you the offers were there to fight the talent.

I disagree Johnson had bad competition in title fights and does not rate as average in comparison to tenured lineal champions. Men who had a few title fights. Not even close.

Jack Johnson had a signed offer to fight Sam Langford, he back out of the fight and never fought Langford, Jeanette, Mcvey, Smith, McCarty or Wills the talent from 1909-1915 during his title run. What was his best two wins?! In your opinion there are who? Not as good as prime version of these men ( 1909-1915 ) that much I'm sure of!

Whoe whoe!! back up the truck! Politics? promoters? Johnson did not try to make less money did he? Sometimes the short money looks good, you fight an opponent for it. Why was Johnson in France to begin with? I don't have to show you anything unless you are telling me Johnson deliberately fought guys for less money because he wanted to make less money. Johnson's risk assesment is not something I am aware of... I doubt anyone is.

You can disagree but if you look at all the champs and their competition aside from the 70's and 90's we don't see much. So we tend to want to look for an average understanding of skills displayed in the ring when we can. I don't get into discussions about these contracts. They lead nowhere. I look at human nature, the general level of talent, the options of a fighter, and most important, when available I look at film.

[Willow The Wisp]

Johnson was still considered pretty great in 2019 when the international boxing research organization released this list.

Heavyweight Results
1. Muhammad Ali (603)
2. Joe Louis (586)
3. Jack Dempsey (467)
4. Larry Holmes (452)
5. George Foreman (447)
6. Jack Johnson (432)
7. Rocky Marciano (412)
8. Sonny Liston (382)
9. Lennox Lewis (361)
10. Joe Frazier (349)
11. Mike Tyson (276)
12. Evander Holyfield (271)
13. James J Jeffries (264)
14. Gene Tunney (226)
15. Sam Langford (171)
16. Ezzard Charles (120)
17. Jersey Joe Walcott (88)
18. Wladimir Klitschko (86)
19. Vitaly Klitschko (83)
20. Riddick Bowe (71)

pound for pound Langford was better than Johnso .

Yup, and the IBRO group collectively knows the subject. Believe it.
Of course the often very personal criteria for what truly defines greatness ensures that all such lists are a work of opinion. I'm saying rather little there, of course. The P4P comparison creeps still further out on the branch, as I've written before. Even 6' 3" 221 lb. Ali had difficulty executing the particulars of the art when compared to Willie Pep; 9" and 95 lbs less for the nervous system to move around. So P4P really is relegated to an assessment of a figher's accomplishments within the bracket that he was able to accomplish those.
More intriguing for me is the whimsical notion of modern boxing vs. "Less developed styles of decades past". Seen plenty of fights, never bought in to that one. Nor has any trans-era trainer or historian worth his salt.
it's an ancient craft, not a modern sport. Oh, well. Somebody’s got to be cut out to mop the floor.

[JAB5239]

Yup, and the IBRO group collectively knows the subject. Believe it.
Of course the often very personal criteria for what truly defines greatness ensures that all such lists are a work of opinion. I'm saying rather little there, of course. The P4P comparison creeps still further out on the branch, as I've written before. Even 6' 3" 221 lb. Ali had difficulty executing the particulars of the art when compared to Willie Pep; 9" and 95 lbs less for the nervous system to move around. So P4P really is relegated to an assessment of a figher's accomplishments within the bracket that he was able to accomplish those.
More intriguing for me is the whimsical notion of modern boxing vs. "Less developed styles of decades past". Seen plenty of fights, never bought in to that one. Nor has any trans-era trainer or historian worth his salt.
it's an ancient craft, not a modern sport. Oh, well. Somebody’s got to be cut out to mop the floor.

I don't include heavyweights in my p4p ratings for the reasons you've pointed out, at least not in the top 20. And I also don't buy into less developed styles. As you said it's an ancient sport. There are only so many ways to throw or avoid a punch. Film has changed....nutrition and medical advances have changed, but boxing is in itself still boxing. The one thing I do believe has changed a bit is the toughness of fighters. Guys use to fight for scraps. And I'm no talking about low level guys like today, but many of the elite fighters of the past. It's so much easier today to be pampered and spoiled if you're an elite fighter today. Just my opinion of course.

[Ivich]

Yup, and the IBRO group collectively knows the subject. Believe it.
Of course the often very personal criteria for what truly defines greatness ensures that all such lists are a work of opinion. I'm saying rather little there, of course. The P4P comparison creeps still further out on the branch, as I've written before. Even 6' 3" 221 lb. Ali had difficulty executing the particulars of the art when compared to Willie Pep; 9" and 95 lbs less for the nervous system to move around. So P4P really is relegated to an assessment of a figher's accomplishments within the bracket that he was able to accomplish those.
More intriguing for me is the whimsical notion of modern boxing vs. "Less developed styles of decades past". Seen plenty of fights, never bought in to that one. Nor has any trans-era trainer or historian worth his salt.
it's an ancient craft, not a modern sport. Oh, well. Somebody’s got to be cut out to mop the floor.

P4P Langford stands miles ahead of Johnson.

[Ivich]

You didn't read the post carefully... I qualified the reason he didn't want to fight Sam...It was not his color per se. Johnson fought to make money in professional prize fighting... His competition was typical for most average heavyweight champs... Not the best, not the worse.

You are debating with a man who has a long proven history of pathological hatred against Johnson.

On the Classic Forum a poster once asked him if Johnson had had sexual relations with his Great Grand Mother, as they could see no other justification for such phobic ,and vitriolic hate.

He will turn unrelated threads into hate fests against Johnson given the slightest opportunity, that's why Classic banned him!