How Great is Sam Langford?

[QueensburyRules]

He could have been heavyweight champion from 1909-1915 too. He had a singed contact to fight the champion but the champion shamelessly pulled out! Langford dominated the same competition, men who received title shots before and after this, plus fought the man who knocked the champion him silly in an exhibition match. Hmm...

- - Sam's record from after he fought JJohnson to the point of JJ being laid out by Willard is much better than the entirety of JJ career record.

That's how good Sam was, the uncrowned Hvy Champ of that era, and every era that followed as long as men who actually follow boxing will remember.

[Willow The Wisp]

- - Sam's record from after he fought JJohnson to the point of JJ being laid out by Willard is much better than the entirety of JJ career record.

That's how good Sam was, the uncrowned Hvy Champ of that era, and every era that followed as long as men who actually follow boxing will remember.

Too much praise couldn't be stored to heap onto Sam Langford as a MOQ rules Prizefighter. A super-great in any era. No reason to use his career as a stone to toss at Johnson though, it there? I mean, feel free to if you gotta do whatca gotta do, than do it.
But remember that Sam and Jack had very different lives after Rushcutters Bay in 1908. Langford was free to travel the world and fight whomever for an often unfair wage, while Johnson was hogtied to the burdensome distinction of being the planet's champion. That he escaped assassination is one of history's great mysteries. Very apples and oranges to compare them. They did fight of course, as we all know. You can make a case for size disparity to credit Langford, though Sam would have laughed at that, surely.
Sam looked at height as though a man's length had to begin at the ground and that was plenty for him to work with. As to weight? Also a non-issue for Lanford.
Langford only met Jack Johnson in the ring once, on April 26, 1906, in Chelsea, Massachusetts. Johnson, outweighed Langford by 35 pounds, and won easily, breaking Langford's nose and cutting his lip. Johnson said later that he had prolonged the match to 15 rounds at the request of the management at the Lincoln Athletic Club where the fight was held. You get slightly varying accounts of the fight, but most are similar to this. You also get some revisionist fables from Langford's manager Joe Woodman. The story was retold for years, until one day, according to BoxRec Encyclopedia, the founder of The Ring, Nat Fleischer had the occasion and cornered Woodman and good-naturedly demanded the true version of events. According to Fleischer, this was Woodman’s response: “You’ve got me, Nat. Langford never dropped Johnson. But I was anxious to fix up another fight between the two and, knowing Jack’s pride, I invented the story of that knockdown to goad him into the ring against Sam again. Although it never happened, all the newspapermen believed it. They just never took the trouble to investigate. That knockdown was just a publicity gimmick.”
Was Langford "Greater" than Jack Johnson? Sure, if that's what you prefer to think; but when they actually fought, Johnson was the better man and not by a little. Would the 30 some odd pounds that Langford aquired by 1912 have forced a rematch in a different direction? No data on that, only guesses. My guess is no. Like Langford, Johnson was a ring marvel, but unlike Sam, he was not free to pursue his vocation.

[Rosco3387]

Too much praise couldn't be stored to heap onto Sam Langford as a MOQ rules Prizefighter. A super-great in any era. No reason to use his career as a stone to toss at Johnson though, it there? I mean, feel free to if you gotta do whatca gotta do, than do it.
But remember that Sam and Jack had very different lives after Rushcutters Bay in 1908. Langford was free to travel the world and fight whomever for an often unfair wage, while Johnson was hogtied to the burdensome distinction of being the planet's champion. That he escaped assassination is one of history's great mysteries. Very apples and oranges to compare them. They did fight of course, as we all know. You can make a case for size disparity to credit Langford, though Sam would have laughed at that, surely.
Sam looked at height as though a man's length had to begin at the ground and that was plenty for him to work with. As to weight? Also a non-issue for Lanford.
Langford only met Jack Johnson in the ring once, on April 26, 1906, in Chelsea, Massachusetts. Johnson, outweighed Langford by 35 pounds, and won easily, breaking Langford's nose and cutting his lip. Johnson said later that he had prolonged the match to 15 rounds at the request of the management at the Lincoln Athletic Club where the fight was held. You get slightly varying accounts of the fight, but most are similar to this. You also get some revisionist fables from Langford's manager Joe Woodman. The story was retold for years, until one day, according to BoxRec Encyclopedia, the founder of The Ring, Nat Fleischer had the occasion and cornered Woodman and good-naturedly demanded the true version of events. According to Fleischer, this was Woodman’s response: “You’ve got me, Nat. Langford never dropped Johnson. But I was anxious to fix up another fight between the two and, knowing Jack’s pride, I invented the story of that knockdown to goad him into the ring against Sam again. Although it never happened, all the newspapermen believed it. They just never took the trouble to investigate. That knockdown was just a publicity gimmick.”
Was Langford "Greater" than Jack Johnson? Sure, if that's what you prefer to think; but when they actually fought, Johnson was the better man and not by a little. Would the 30 some odd pounds that Langford aquired by 1912 have forced a rematch in a different direction? No data on that, only guesses. My guess is no. Like Langford, Johnson was a ring marvel, but unlike Sam, he was not free to pursue his vocation.

Sam was one of "those" guys that loved to fight. Toney, Galento are a few others with that love of fighting. Sam happened to also be a talent of the ages. Johnson imo is a little more like Ray Robinson regarding "fighting." He didn't really enjoy it so much, Robinson actually stated he preferred dancing... JJ also probably preferred other things. I mention this because often enough, people assume these monumental motives for a person's actions... "JJ avoided other Black Fighters!" they say, etc etc... I tend to think Johnson did not relish getting slammed in the face, ribs roasted, like some other fighters did. People forget that the Black fighting community in JJ's time was few, had incredible talent compared to the White fighters, per capita... And they fought tough! because they fought each other so much they knew the tricks and ways of the other guy, guaranteeing a bruising affair.

If you are JJ do you want to: a) show Jack London up again and again, easily handling heavyweights that were smaller, weaker and not able to deal... and were antagonistic towards who you were, Or b) fight guys who were talented, knew your tricks, were not naturally antagonistic towards you?

[Ivich]

Sam was one of "those" guys that loved to fight. Toney, Galento are a few others with that love of fighting. Sam happened to also be a talent of the ages. Johnson imo is a little more like Ray Robinson regarding "fighting." He didn't really enjoy it so much, Robinson actually stated he preferred dancing... JJ also probably preferred other things. I mention this because often enough, people assume these monumental motives for a person's actions... "JJ avoided other Black Fighters!" they say, etc etc... I tend to think Johnson did not relish getting slammed in the face, ribs roasted, like some other fighters did. People forget that the Black fighting community in JJ's time was few, had incredible talent compared to the White fighters, per capita... And they fought tough! because they fought each other so much they knew the tricks and ways of the other guy, guaranteeing a bruising affair.

If you are JJ do you want to: a) show Jack London up again and again, easily handling heavyweights that were smaller, weaker and not able to deal... and were antagonistic towards who you were, Or b) fight guys who were talented, knew your tricks, were not naturally antagonistic towards you?

As champion Johnson wanted the maximum amount of money he could get to face his 3 most dangerous opponents .McVey,Jeannette, and Langford.
He knew he could get away with just being in half decent condition against the White Hopes the US public wanted him to meet,for any of the Black Trio, he would need to be at his best.

Is that any different than any other champion throughout boxing history?

Jim Jeffries got a paltry sum to defend against no hoper Jack Munroe,which was one of the reasons he retired

Would Tyson Fury demand the same purse to fight,Charr as he would to face Usyk or Joshua?

Alvarez the same to face Saunders again, as to fight Bivol.Benvenidez or Beterbiev?

[Dr. Z]

As champion Johnson wanted the maximum amount of money he could get to face his 3 most dangerous opponents .McVey,Jeannette, and Langford.
He knew he could get away with just being in half decent condition against the White Hopes the US public wanted him to meet,for any of the Black Trio, he would need to be at his best.

Is that any different than any other champion throughout boxing history?

Jim Jeffries got a paltry sum to defend against no hoper Jack Munroe,which was one of the reasons he retired

Would Tyson Fury demand the same purse to fight,Charr as he would to face Usyk or Joshua?

Alvarez the same to face Saunders again, as to fight Bivol.Benvenidez or Beterbiev?

Do not make this thread about Jack Johnson who received numerous offers in the press and backed out of sign contacts to fight Langford. Offers up to 50,000.00 and 100,000.00 in the press. He could have fought them anywhere in the world. If you sign a contract you should honor it, shouldn't you?

We have been over this.

[Dr. Z]

Rosco3387

If you are JJ do you want to: a) show Jack London up again and again, easily handling heavyweights that were smaller, weaker and not able to deal... and were antagonistic towards who you were, Or b) fight guys who were talented, knew your tricks, were not naturally antagonistic towards you?

'

He chose choice A and did not fight the best white fighters out there aside O'Brein who he had a new draw with with and Willard who knocked him out. He fought the shell of Jeffries. Jack didn't fight Gunboat Smith who KO'd him in an exciton match and beaten men he gave title shots to, or McCarty view was the best of the " White hopes " while he was alive.

Sam's denied the chance at the title. I doubt it would have mattered if he was white. He was ducked on ability.

[QueensburyRules]

Too much praise couldn't be stored to heap onto Sam Langford as a MOQ rules Prizefighter. A super-great in any era. No reason to use his career as a stone to toss at Johnson though, it there? I mean, feel free to if you gotta do whatca gotta do, than do it.
But remember that Sam and Jack had very different lives after Rushcutters Bay in 1908. Langford was free to travel the world and fight whomever for an often unfair wage, while Johnson was hogtied to the burdensome distinction of being the planet's champion. That he escaped assassination is one of history's great mysteries. Very apples and oranges to compare them. They did fight of course, as we all know. You can make a case for size disparity to credit Langford, though Sam would have laughed at that, surely.

- - Sam ain't never rated over JJohnson in media echo chamber top hvy all time lists, but always guts him in the p4p lists.

So it ain't lying or taking things out of context to note in a very small slice of their common overlap of JJ title years, that in that small slice Sam compiled a better record by far than in the entirety of JJ's long career, Fighting Hvys!

Sam small career slice > than JJ career entirety...end of!!!

[Ivich]

- - Sam ain't never rated over JJohnson in media echo chamber top hvy all time lists, but always guts him in the p4p lists.

So it ain't lying or taking things out of context to note in a very small slice of their common overlap of JJ title years, that in that small slice Sam compiled a better record by far than in the entirety of JJ's long career, Fighting Hvys!

Sam small career slice > than JJ career entirety...end of!!!

Langford is a top 10 all time p4p,Johnson is not.
Does that answer the question?

[Dubblechin]

He was an excellent fighter for his day (100 years ago). But he wasn't better than Jack Johnson even then. And there's been a 100 years of top fighters and champions since then ... to the point that even Johnson isn't considered all that great anymore.

Time moves on.

[JAB5239]

He was an excellent fighter for his day (100 years ago). But he wasn't better than Jack Johnson even then. And there's been a 100 years of top fighters and champions since then ... to the point that even Johnson isn't considered all that great anymore.

Time moves on.

Johnson was still considered pretty great in 2019 when the international boxing research organization released this list.

Heavyweight Results
1. Muhammad Ali (603)
2. Joe Louis (586)
3. Jack Dempsey (467)
4. Larry Holmes (452)
5. George Foreman (447)
6. Jack Johnson (432)
7. Rocky Marciano (412)
8. Sonny Liston (382)
9. Lennox Lewis (361)
10. Joe Frazier (349)
11. Mike Tyson (276)
12. Evander Holyfield (271)
13. James J Jeffries (264)
14. Gene Tunney (226)
15. Sam Langford (171)
16. Ezzard Charles (120)
17. Jersey Joe Walcott (88)
18. Wladimir Klitschko (86)
19. Vitaly Klitschko (83)
20. Riddick Bowe (71)

pound for pound Langford was better than Johnso .