Joe Louis vs these fighters

[StarshipTrooper]

And that is a damning stat.

Jack Johnson - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Jack Dempsey - Never beat a top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Gene Tunney - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Rocky Marciano - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Sonny Liston - Never beat a top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Joe Frazier - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Larry Holmes - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Mike Tyson - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Lennox Lewis - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Vitali Klitschko - Never beat a top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Wladimir Klitschko - Never beat a top-15 ATG Heavyweight

Ezzard Charles - Beat ONE in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Joe Walcott - Beat ONE in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
George Foreman - Beat ONE in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Evander Holyfield - Beat ONE in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Riddick Bowe - Beat ONE in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight

For the record, it's RARE for there to be two or more in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweights to be active AT THE SAME TIME.

For the record:

Ali - Ali by UD or TKO.
Foreman - Foreman by KO
Liston - Pick Em. Favouring Liston
Lewis - Pick Em, favouring Louis. (Power v bad chin, but works either way)
Frazier - Pick Em. Joe has a better chin. Someone's getting sparked.
Tyson - Tyson sparks him, early.
Johnson - Louis
Tunney - Louis
Dempsey - Louis

I notice a trend here: The more recent the fighter the more likely you are to have them beating Louis. A bias toward "modern" fighters maybe?

Poet

[Shazam!]

"Lennox Lewis - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight" - Poet

I get your point and agree with it.

...although Lennox beat a prime or very near prime Holyfield in 99. A lot of people put Holyfield in their ATG Top 10. He was 36, had beaten Tyson a couple years prior, was Undisputed Heavyweight Champion and ranked P4P Number 3 at the time.

Then there's Klitschko, who may go down as a top 15/top 20 HW. Lewis was past prime when he faced him and did struggle early on, but deserves credit for a) taking that fight and b) getting back in to it and winning it. It's very rare an older champion faces the young prime contender and comes out well.

[StarshipTrooper]

"Lennox Lewis - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight" - Poet

I get your point and agree with it.

...although Lennox beat a prime or very near prime Holyfield in 99. A lot of people put Holyfield in their ATG Top 10. He was 36, had beaten Tyson a couple years prior, was Undisputed Heavyweight Champion and ranked P4P Number 3 at the time.

Then there's Klitschko, who may go down as a top 15/top 20 HW. Lewis was past prime when he faced him and did struggle early on, but deserves credit for a) taking that fight and b) getting back in to it and winning it. It's very rare an older champion faces the young prime contender and comes out well.

While agree that Lewis deserves some credit for the wins, I think it's pretty well agreed that Holyfield had been past it since before the Tyson fights. Good wins for Lewis? Yes. Wins over a prime Holyfield? No. The same with Klitscho: A good win over a good fighter yes. The problem is I'm not yet ready to rank Vitali in the top-15 all-time. Maybe when all is said and done he'll be there, maybe not. Stay stuned

Poet

[Shazam!]

When I watch that version of Holyfield 'past-it' is the last thing I think. But we'll agree to disagree I guess

[frankenfrank]

Joe Louis vs these fighters....Who do you have winning.

Muhammad Ali
George Forman
Sonny Liston
Lennox Lewis
Joe Frazier
Mike Tyson
Jack Johnson(197lbs)
Gene Tunney
Jack Dempsey

Ali UD15 Louis
Foreman KO4 Louis
Liston vs. Louis - don't know
Lewis UD12 Louis
Frazier TKO10 Louis
Tyson KO1 Louis
Louis TKO12 Johnson
Louis KO10 Tunney
Louis KO10 Dempsey

[boxingbuff]

It looks like most posters have Joe Louis being beat by several fighters.

[RockyB]

Muhammad Ali = Ali
George Forman = could go either way
Sonny Liston = Louis
Lennox Lewis = Louis
Joe Frazier = Louis
Mike Tyson = Tyson

Jack Johnson(197lbs)
Gene Tunney Havent seen enough of these three to make a prediction.
Jack Dempsey

[fight_professor]

Jack Johnson - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Jack Dempsey - Never beat a top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Gene Tunney - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Rocky Marciano - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Sonny Liston - Never beat a top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Joe Frazier - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Larry Holmes - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Mike Tyson - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Lennox Lewis - Never beat an in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Vitali Klitschko - Never beat a top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Wladimir Klitschko - Never beat a top-15 ATG Heavyweight

Ezzard Charles - Beat ONE in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Joe Walcott - Beat ONE in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
George Foreman - Beat ONE in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Evander Holyfield - Beat ONE in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight
Riddick Bowe - Beat ONE in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweight

For the record, it's RARE for there to be two or more in-prime top-15 ATG Heavyweights to be active AT THE SAME TIME.




I notice a trend here: The more recent the fighter the more likely you are to have them beating Louis. A bias toward "modern" fighters maybe?

Poet

Hey man,

Sup?

There is a difference between never beating a top 15 HW and never beating one in their prime. Louis never beat one, unless I am missing something. Tyson, Holmes, Lewis, Joe..all have wins over great fighters at some point.

Its not a new/old divide, I just feel those guys are stylistically suited to beating him. In overall achievements, Joe Louis ranks way up there #2 or so, but in head to heads, slow feet and a poor chin mean many guys have a shot.

Do you really see him beating a Holmes or an Ali with his robotic movement and B grade chin?

He was a great champ, but his weaknesses are sufficient enough where a half dozen or so guys can beat him.

[StarshipTrooper]

Hey man,

Sup?

There is a difference between never beating a top 15 HW and never beating one in their prime. Louis never beat one, unless I am missing something. Tyson, Holmes, Lewis, Joe..all have wins over great fighters at some point.

From my perspective beating a past prime ATG is no different from not fighting one at all. Past-prime fighters, whether they're ATG or not, are SUPPOSED to lose to top opponents so it's no great accomplishment. Just having the name on one's resume is meaningless: It's when you fight them that counts. Otherwise it's just another name. That's why Holmes gets no credit for beating Ali, Marciano gets no credit for beating Louis, and Lennox gets no credit for beating Tyson: They didn't fight the prime version of those fighters so it's no different than beating any run of the mill opponent.

Its not a new/old divide, I just feel those guys are stylistically suited to beating him. In overall achievements, Joe Louis ranks way up there #2 or so, but in head to heads, slow feet and a poor chin mean many guys have a shot.

Do you really see him beating a Holmes or an Ali with his robotic movement and B grade chin?

He was a great champ, but his weaknesses are sufficient enough where a half dozen or so guys can beat him.

I think you're underestimating Louis' chin here. The only fighter who dropped Louis that wasn't a power puncher was Braddock and even that was the type of flash knockdown that could happen to anybody. And none of those fighters were able to KO Louis in his prime. I also think you're misunderstanding Louis' footwork: His ring movement was a calculated tactic just as Larry Holmes' was. In the case of both fighters it was designed to take advantage of the respective fighter's individual strengths. Just because a fighter isn't a slick dancer doesn't mean he has bad footwork! Those slick dancers use a particular type of footwork to take advantage of their own peculiar strengths.

Poet

[them_apples]

Hey man,

Sup?

There is a difference between never beating a top 15 HW and never beating one in their prime. Louis never beat one, unless I am missing something. Tyson, Holmes, Lewis, Joe..all have wins over great fighters at some point.

Its not a new/old divide, I just feel those guys are stylistically suited to beating him. In overall achievements, Joe Louis ranks way up there #2 or so, but in head to heads, slow feet and a poor chin mean many guys have a shot.

Do you really see him beating a Holmes or an Ali with his robotic movement and B grade chin?

He was a great champ, but his weaknesses are sufficient enough where a half dozen or so guys can beat him.

it's so hard for me to pick Louis over many on that list of Hw's. They were all so good and a great deal of them IMO beat and even stop Louis. The men that put Louis down were smaller men who didn't have near the same punching power as guys like Foreman, Tyson and Liston.

I was going to pick Louis over Frazier, but then I kept getting flashes at what Joe's lighting fast left hook would have done to Louis, and how many times he probably would have made Louis hit the canvas. If Louis beat any elites in his day I might have a better grasp - but his best wins are over guys like Schmelling who fight like amatuers at best. His ATG status is based off of his long, long career run. It doesn't help in h2h matchups.