Bert Sugar ''Willie Pep Is A Greater Fighter Than Muhammad Ali''

[Derranged]

I dont know anything about Willie Pep, Im ashamed to say.

But I heard that Bert Sugar is a drunk.

True or false?

[MonsieurGeorges]

You're going to embarrass me? I hope you can bring a better argument to the table than just boxrec statistics.

Off the top of my head in no particular order.....

Robinson
Greb
Pep
Langford
Charles
Armstrong
Wilde
Walker
B. Leonard
Ross
Gans
R Leonard
Duran

Have at it. Lets see if you can embarrass me.

this isn't a bad list. I would remove Ray Leonard and add Archie Moore

[dde91]

P4p isn't based on footwork, but an entire career. And while it is all subjective
I promise I can make an argument for every fighter I named and maybe a few more.

we didn't even get to see Ali's greatest 4 years . But yea if it is entire career then Ali is up there top 3 for sure. His resume backs it up. He was the best heavyweight in the 60's and 70's. And thats the golden age of heavyweights.

[Schmerzen]

There is nothing better than above average footwork, head hunting, and the one-two combination.... All while keeping your hands down.


/SARCASM.

lennox ultramegaunbelievabledefense didnt help him when he got knocked out cold twice

[JAB5239]

we didn't even get to see Ali's greatest 4 years . But yea if it is entire career then Ali is up there top 3 for sure. His resume backs it up. He was the best heavyweight in the 60's and 70's. And thats the golden age of heavyweights.

I keep going back to this because I think they rate very close together, but I'll respectfully ask what Ali did to separate himself from from Barney Ross, who in his career was one of the first triple crown champions and fought in one of if not the most difficult era for 135 and 147? Ross' resume is certainly comparable if not better. Im not even getting into Armstrong, Robinson, B. Leonard, Gans, Charles, Langford.

[Schmerzen]

I keep going back to this because I think they rate very close together, but I'll respectfully ask what Ali did to separate himself from from Barney Ross, who in his career was one of the first triple crown champions and fought in one of if not the most difficult era for 135 and 147? Ross' resume is certainly comparable if not better. Im not even getting into Armstrong, Robinson, B. Leonard, Gans, Charles, Langford.

wladimir klitschko > barney ross
while foreman was trying to take alis head off for 5million$, ross fought in a time where boxers were happy enough to get clothes from homeless people.
money wasnt a big motivation back then.
if ross was a heavyweight in the 60s, patterson would have kicked his ass.
i also think the fact ali dominating in 2 different eras of the heavyweight division cant be overlooked.

and btw. u can get into armstrong and robinson, alis resume can easily match up with both.

[hayZ]

Only fighter I can say was better than Ali was Sugar Ray Robinson. Ali in his prime, was a total physical animal. He fought the toughest fighters after his prime and still won. He truly was a specimen.

[TheGreatA]

wladimir klitschko > barney ross
while foreman was trying to take alis head off for 5million$, ross fought in a time where boxers were happy enough to get clothes from homeless people.
money wasnt a big motivation back then.
if ross was a heavyweight in the 60s, patterson would have kicked his ass.
i also think the fact ali dominating in 2 different eras of the heavyweight division cant be overlooked.

and btw. u can get into armstrong and robinson, alis resume can easily match up with both.

Barney Ross was a lightweight/welterweight.

Money wasn't a motivation? I'd argue that it was a much greater motivation than it was in Ali's era when most boxers were paid well. In fact George Foreman said in the early 70's that money was no motivation for him because he was already well off, he was fighting mostly for pride and fame.

"I like fighting right now because there's still something I haven't done yet. I want to keep fighting until I get to the top, reach the pinnacle. But Frazier and Ali, what do they have to accomplish? I saw Frazier fight Quarry. After the knockout Joe was so happy he could hardly talk. Same with Ali. After Ellis he hugged his manager like he couldn't believe it. How much water's got to go under the bridge? How many times you got to go in a gym and work on the same thing when you got nothing left to prove? The only thing Frazier could be fighting for now is money, and that ain't enough of an edge to keep a man going. You get hurt fighting just for money. You never get hurt fighting for pride and achievement."

He was reminded that he will collect $375,000 for the fight in Jamaica. "Oh, I know it. That's real nice," he said, smiling. "But money is the least of things. It comes and goes. Pride and responsibility and association with friends, those stay. There's more at stake in any sport than just money. Fighting just for money, you start getting all knocked down and bloodied up. I don't want to represent the sport like that."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1086945/5/index.htm

[Schmerzen]

Barney Ross was a lightweight/welterweight.

Money wasn't a motivation? I'd argue that it was a much greater motivation than it was in Ali's era when most boxers were paid well. In fact George Foreman said in the early 70's that money was no motivation for him because he was already well off, he was fighting mostly for pride and fame.

"I like fighting right now because there's still something I haven't done yet. I want to keep fighting until I get to the top, reach the pinnacle. But Frazier and Ali, what do they have to accomplish? I saw Frazier fight Quarry. After the knockout Joe was so happy he could hardly talk. Same with Ali. After Ellis he hugged his manager like he couldn't believe it. How much water's got to go under the bridge? How many times you got to go in a gym and work on the same thing when you got nothing left to prove? The only thing Frazier could be fighting for now is money, and that ain't enough of an edge to keep a man going. You get hurt fighting just for money. You never get hurt fighting for pride and achievement."

He was reminded that he will collect $375,000 for the fight in Jamaica. "Oh, I know it. That's real nice," he said, smiling. "But money is the least of things. It comes and goes. Pride and responsibility and association with friends, those stay. There's more at stake in any sport than just money. Fighting just for money, you start getting all knocked down and bloodied up. I don't want to represent the sport like that."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...45/5/index.htm

i said IF.
imagine barney as a heavyweight fighting in the 60s.
george made an interview on ********boxing, and there he was talking about how great it would have been if he had beaten ali and get the 5million$.
i have allways thought the welterweight division gets overrated, and some hardcore nostalgic boxing fans here just prove my point.

[TheGreatA]

i said IF.
imagine barney as a heavyweight fighting in the 60s.
george made an interview on ********boxing, and there he was talking about how great it would have been if he had beaten ali and get the 5million$.
i have allways thought the welterweight division gets overrated, and some hardcore nostalgic boxing fans here just prove my point.

That doesn't really make any sense. Barney Ross was a lightweight/welterweight and should be compared to the all-time greats around his division, not to heavyweights. How can we possibly tell if a heavyweight Barney Ross could or could not compete with Floyd Patterson?

Why does it get overrated? If anything, I believe the 70's golden era of heavyweights gets overrated. The late part of the 1970's post-Manila was dreadful with an aging Ali clinging onto his title for as long as he could. The late 60's and early 70's were good but the likes of Quarry, Lyle, Shavers are only as highly rated as they are due to their association with Ali.

Foreman got the 5 million anyway so why would he care about the money whether he won or lost? He was going to get the money either way but in losing he lost his sense of pride. If Barney Ross lost, he's not going to make a living, and thus won't be able to feed his family and himself. The same for many of his opponents.