Bert Sugar ''Willie Pep Is A Greater Fighter Than Muhammad Ali''

[hhascup]

First of all Pep and Ali are among the Greatest of all-times. Secondly, there never was a perfect fighter, not even Sugar Ray Robinson. Robinson fought a draw against Henry Brimm when he was in his prime. Brimm was 23-9-2 at the time and ended his career with a record of 26-18-4. Robinson never fought Charley Burley or Holman Williams. Most people thought he lost against Georgie Abrams.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:23483

Here's a snap shot at both Ali and Pep:

Ali fought 49 out of his 61 bouts against boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another (winning 44 times) and 37 of them were rated when he fought them (winning 32 times). That is a % of 80.3 and 60.6557%.

Pep fought 89 out of his 241 bouts against boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another (winning 79 times, with 1 draw) and 35 of them were rated when he fought them (winning 27 times). That is a % of 36.9 and 14.5%.

The thing that this shows, is that Ali did box the better opponents during his career.

You can also look at BoxRec, where I am one of the editors:

Ali beat 20 Heavyweights that are listed in the top 100, PLUS the top 2 Light Heavyweights.

Pep beat 9 Featherweights that are listed in the top 100, Plus 1 in the Lightweight division.

The average boxers record that Ali fought was 33-5
The average boxers record that Pep fought was 31-15

I also know Bert Sugar very well and I respect his opinions, BUT I also know most of the top Historians in boxing and no 2 boxing historians will ever agree on an all-time rating.

[AddiX]

First of all Pep and Ali are among the Greatest of all-times. Secondly, there never was a perfect fighter, not even Sugar Ray Robinson. Robinson fought a draw against Henry Brimm when he was in his prime. Brimm was 23-9-2 at the time and ended his career with a record of 26-18-4. Robinson never fought Charley Burley or Holman Williams. Most people thought he lost against Georgie Abrams.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:23483

Here's a snap shot at both Ali and Pep:

Ali fought 49 out of his 61 bouts against boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another (winning 44 times) and 37 of them were rated when he fought them (winning 32 times). That is a % of 80.3 and 60.6557%.

Pep fought 89 out of his 241 bouts against boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another (winning 79 times, with 1 draw) and 35 of them were rated when he fought them (winning 27 times). That is a % of 36.9 and 14.5%.

The thing that this shows, is that Ali did box the better opponents during his career.

You can also look at BoxRec, where I am one of the editors:

Ali beat 20 Heavyweights that are listed in the top 100, PLUS the top 2 Light Heavyweights.

Pep beat 9 Featherweights that are listed in the top 100, Plus 1 in the Lightweight division.

The average boxers record that Ali fought was 33-5
The average boxers record that Pep fought was 31-15

I also know Bert Sugar very well and I respect his opinions, BUT I also know most of the top Historians in boxing and no 2 boxing historians will ever agree on an all-time rating.

Wow, that might be one of the best posts I've seen on Boxingscene. I have a lot to learn from you.

[JAB5239]

First of all Pep and Ali are among the Greatest of all-times. Secondly, there never was a perfect fighter, not even Sugar Ray Robinson. Robinson fought a draw against Henry Brimm when he was in his prime. Brimm was 23-9-2 at the time and ended his career with a record of 26-18-4. Robinson never fought Charley Burley or Holman Williams. Most people thought he lost against Georgie Abrams.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:23483

Here's a snap shot at both Ali and Pep:

Ali fought 49 out of his 61 bouts against boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another (winning 44 times) and 37 of them were rated when he fought them (winning 32 times). That is a % of 80.3 and 60.6557%.

Pep fought 89 out of his 241 bouts against boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another (winning 79 times, with 1 draw) and 35 of them were rated when he fought them (winning 27 times). That is a % of 36.9 and 14.5%.

The thing that this shows, is that Ali did box the better opponents during his career.

You can also look at BoxRec, where I am one of the editors:

Ali beat 20 Heavyweights that are listed in the top 100, PLUS the top 2 Light Heavyweights.

Pep beat 9 Featherweights that are listed in the top 100, Plus 1 in the Lightweight division.

The average boxers record that Ali fought was 33-5
The average boxers record that Pep fought was 31-15

I also know Bert Sugar very well and I respect his opinions, BUT I also know most of the top Historians in boxing and no 2 boxing historians will ever agree on an all-time rating.

Very informative post, thank you. One question though. When you look at the average records for opponents do you take into consideration, when rating a fighter such as Pep, all the stay busy fights he had? because if you do than the average record for Pep's opponents would be much higher. Im just curious if this comes into play when you rank a fighter all time. Those fights shouldn't be disregarded, but I do think it's relevant.

[hhascup]

Very informative post, thank you. One question though. When you look at the average records for opponents do you take into consideration, when rating a fighter such as Pep, all the stay busy fights he had? because if you do than the average record for Pep's opponents would be much higher. Im just curious if this comes into play when you rank a fighter all time. Those fights shouldn't be disregarded, but I do think it's relevant.

When I rate boxers, I take everything into consideration. To me it's like baseball, you have the Majors (boxing against rated boxers) and you have the Minors (boxing against non-rated boxers).

So if you just count the Majors, here's what you get:

Ali 32-5
Pep 27-8

or if you count all the boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another, here's what you get.

Ali 44-5-0
Pep 79-9-1

Ali had a total of 61 bouts, with a record of 56-5
Pep had a total of 241 bouts, with a record of 229-11-1

So if you go by this, Ali only fought 12 bouts in his career against boxers that were never rated in the top 10 and only 24 that weren't rated when he fought them.

On the other hand, Pep fought 152 bouts in his career against boxers that were never rated in the top 10 and a total of 206 that weren't rated when he fought them.

This is just another thing you can look at when you try to rate boxers. I rate Pep as one of the all-time Greats, as I do Ali. I rate both in my top 10 and most of the top boxing historians do as well.

It's very hard to rate boxers from the same era in different weight classes, never mind in different era's.

I am a charter member of IBRO and I am also on the selective committees for the International Boxing Hall of Fame for both the Modern and Old-Timer categories. I know almost all the top boxing historians in the world and none of them have ever agreed on a top 10 list in any category.

[StarshipTrooper]

When I rate boxers, I take everything into consideration. To me it's like baseball, you have the Majors (boxing against rated boxers) and you have the Minors (boxing against non-rated boxers).

So if you just count the Majors, here's what you get:

Ali 32-5
Pep 27-8

or if you count all the boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another, here's what you get.

Ali 44-5-0
Pep 79-9-1

Ali had a total of 61 bouts, with a record of 56-5
Pep had a total of 241 bouts, with a record of 229-11-1

So if you go by this, Ali only fought 12 bouts in his career against boxers that were never rated in the top 10 and only 24 that weren't rated when he fought them.

On the other hand, Pep fought 152 bouts in his career against boxers that were never rated in the top 10 and a total of 206 that weren't rated when he fought them.

This is just another thing you can look at when you try to rate boxers. I rate Pep as one of the all-time Greats, as I do Ali. I rate both in my top 10 and most of the top boxing historians do as well.

It's very hard to rate boxers from the same era in different weight classes, never mind in different era's.

I am a charter member of IBRO and I am also on the selective committees for the International Boxing Hall of Fame for both the Modern and Old-Timer categories. I know almost all the top boxing historians in the world and none of them have ever agreed on a top 10 list in any category.

Boxing Scene ought to put you on a retainer: You're just a gold mine of information. Come to think of it I'd like to see you, GreatA, and Southpaw ALL get residency status

Poet

[JAB5239]

When I rate boxers, I take everything into consideration. To me it's like baseball, you have the Majors (boxing against rated boxers) and you have the Minors (boxing against non-rated boxers).

So if you just count the Majors, here's what you get:

Ali 32-5
Pep 27-8

or if you count all the boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another, here's what you get.

Ali 44-5-0
Pep 79-9-1

Ali had a total of 61 bouts, with a record of 56-5
Pep had a total of 241 bouts, with a record of 229-11-1

So if you go by this, Ali only fought 12 bouts in his career against boxers that were never rated in the top 10 and only 24 that weren't rated when he fought them.

On the other hand, Pep fought 152 bouts in his career against boxers that were never rated in the top 10 and a total of 206 that weren't rated when he fought them.

This is just another thing you can look at when you try to rate boxers. I rate Pep as one of the all-time Greats, as I do Ali. I rate both in my top 10 and most of the top boxing historians do as well.

It's very hard to rate boxers from the same era in different weight classes, never mind in different era's.

I am a charter member of IBRO and I am also on the selective committees for the International Boxing Hall of Fame for both the Modern and Old-Timer categories. I know almost all the top boxing historians in the world and none of them have ever agreed on a top 10 list in any category.

I appreciate the education, thank you.

[Jim Jeffries]

I'm curious about the formula Boxrec uses that has Wlad and Vitali at #4 and #5 p4p, and Hopkins at #1.

Maybe you can't always look at records of opponents and say that opponent Tye Fields 43 (39) - 2 is a better than opponent Lennox Lewis 41 (32) - 2.