Poll: Is Duran a top 5 AT fighter?

[SouthpawRight]

Slot 7 is the highest I can rank Roberto

1. Sugar Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Roberto Duran

[SouthpawRight]

Great resumes.

curious why Floyd is top 10 for IDH

That is my favorite boxer ever

I’m familiar with his record so I don’t see him as mythical figure even though he was

The master of clean punching and boxing god of defense

it was an achievement for the opponent if he could win more than 2 clear rounds

the crowd would or gasm when opponent managed to get a clean jab in

[SouthpawRight]

Cool photo of all time greats and some top tens

Joe Louis is the respected eldest brother who paved the way for all of them

Ezzard is physically larger but Sugar Robinson is the star soaking up all of them attention in the room

the star happens to be looking at Joe
image.jpg

[DeeMoney]

There’s no right or wrong answer.

Thank you, I appreciate that. And yeah I know, there is no wrong way to do it- I just don't want to be arguing apples to oranges with people. If someone rates Manny Pacquiao highly and cites his many weight classes and career longevity it just ends up that we are evaluating two different things. Not that I don't rate many very highly (I do) but just not based so heavily on those two factors.

This is why I may rate someone like Duran, who dominated a single weight class with some late career movement, higher than others who look more favorably at climbing classes.

[QueensburyRules]

- - 2006 IBRO p4p-

Updated September 2006 1. Sugar Ray Robinson 2. Harry Greb 3. Henry Armstrong 4. Muhammad Ali (Tie) 4. Joe Louis (Tie) 6. Sam Langford 7. Roberto Duran 8. Benny Leonard 9. Willie Pep 10. Bob Fitzsimmons 11. Joe Gans 12. Ezzard Charles (Tie) 12. Sugar Ray Leonard (Tie) 14. Jimmy Wilde 15. Eder Jofre 16. Mickey Walker 17. Archie Moore 18. Jack Dempsey 19. Jack Johnson 20. Gene Tunney Just missing the cut: Stanley Ketchel, Barbados Joe Walcott, Rocky Marciano, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Ike Williams, George Dixon, Sandy Saddler, Roy Jones Jr.

2019 IBRO p4p-

1. Ray Robinson (602) 2. Henry Armstrong (536) 3. Harry Greb (499) 4. Sam Langford (395) 5. Roberto Duran (376) 6. Wille Pep (371) 7. Muhammad Ali (368) 8. Joe Louis (351) 9. Benny Leonard (335) 10. Ray Leonard (265) 11. Joe Gans (248) 12. Bob Fitzsimmons (217) 13. Ezzard Charles (200) 14. Mickey Walker (178) 15. Archie Moore (138) 16. Eder Jofre (134) 17. Jimmy Wilde (117) 18. Jack Dempsey (80) 19. Jack Johnson (79) 20. Gene Tunney (74) 21. Barney Ross (68) 22. Floyd Mayweather Jr. (67) 23. Stanley Ketchel (61) 24. Tony Canzoneri (60) 25. Manny Pacquiao (55) Just Missing the Cut (50 points or more) Carlos Monzon (54). A total of 65 boxers received votes (at least 1 point) in this poll.

[Mr Mitts]

When I rate based on greatness, I tend to rate how great I believe the fighter to be based on their in-ring ability mostly while in their prime (though I do give some additional credence to longevity). Also I rate relative to their given weight class or classes. Whereas most seem to rate based on accumulated accomplishments giving special consideration to those fighters who move up in weight.
This leads to a couple stark differences between my ratings and others.

One, I try to take into account that not all fighters are given the same opportunities to accumulate a great set of opponents on their resume- this doesn’t mean that a given fighter is worse, it just means that their opponents were worse. I’d like to think I’d rate Muhammad Ali the same whether he had Louis’s resume or his own. Now obviously, having a more difficult resume makes it easier to fully evaluate a given fighter, so it requires some eye test and some research into the specific fight itself. But I prefer this method than just comparing resumes, as the latter is more telling of the era and possibly a fighter’s management and promotion- I’d like to think my evaluation is more about their in ring ability and what they produced than their ability to secure fights or the availability of opposition talent.

As it relates to weight classes, I don’t usually give a lot of credit for climbing weight classes (this is a big difference for me and others). Successfully moving up in weight in itself is not a proof of greatness for me anymore than dominating a given weight class- though it may allow a fighter to defeat better opponents and allow a more complete picture of their abilities. Though it may be indicative of having a better skillset, boxing is a sport- and ergo athletic ability matters. If you are able to make a given weight and be athletically dominant over fighters of the same weight class, then credit to you for that (although that’s why I like hydration clauses, as it keeps weight roughly equal).
I also heavily favor peak and prime over longevity, but I recognize that longevity should play a part in the evaluation. I just look more at how you were at your best, as opposed to how long you stuck around.
Like I wrote, it’s a bit different than what others choose to look at, and I think it may explain why I rate Duran so high. Different strokes for different folks.

Like yourself, my criteria are not equally weighted, the heaviest being Who beats Who. It am very hard to rank a man ahead of someone who either did beat him more times than not, or you believe strongly would have. I lament that Duran did not stop at Jr welter to snatch that trophy for his mantle.

All other criteria matter. It matters that a man defended his title 11 times or just 1. It matters how he climbed the ranks, his longevity, his technique, chin, toughness, heart, resume. But, who I see winning gets the biggest share, after that resume is followed by everything else.

It am a huge thing for the world to have forgiven Bobby for a giant boxing sin. That says, "Even if you did that, we still have to see more of you, please." He was that good and that exciting.

[MalevolentBite]

Are we including heavyweights ( Non P4P)? Then no. If its P4P then yes. Heavyweights alone would knock him to top 15.

[MalevolentBite]

Slot 7 is the highest I can rank Roberto

1. Sugar Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Roberto Duran

You got Duran over Holmes, Frazier, Foreman, Leonard, Hagler, Archie Moore?

[DeeMoney]

Like yourself, my criteria are not equally weighted, the heaviest being Who beats Who. It am very hard to rank a man ahead of someone who either did beat him more times than not, or you believe strongly would have. I lament that Duran did not stop at Jr welter to snatch that trophy for his mantle.

All other criteria matter. It matters that a man defended his title 11 times or just 1. It matters how he climbed the ranks, his longevity, his technique, chin, toughness, heart, resume. But, who I see winning gets the biggest share, after that resume is followed by everything else.

It am a huge thing for the world to have forgiven Bobby for a giant boxing sin. That says, "Even if you did that, we still have to see more of you, please." He was that good and that exciting.

I think our system is very similar, though I am sure we have different results

[DeeMoney]

You got Duran over Holmes, Frazier, Foreman, Leonard, Hagler, Archie Moore?

I too have Duran above all those you listed, and while I can see a clear path for Leonard to be rated higher- and possibly one for Archie and Hagler, am wondering how you have Frazier, Holmes, and Foreman rated higher than Duran?