Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

[travestyny]

The idea that Dempsey's commitment to defending his title (The World's Title) against Wills or Godfrey would make the fights occur, is not in keeping with the societal facts present at the time. Dempsey had admiration for Wills, sympathy for his plight; and limited control over the social architecture of the times.

Imagine today, a Hollywood movie celebrity extolling the virtues of **** and child ******ation.
"Oh, the kiddies love it!", he claims.
How would the public react?

That should give us a sense of what Dempsey and Wills were up against in the 1920's; the Ku Klux Claniest decade since the 1860's.

Only a fool would try to superimpose contemporary thinking on another age.

Seems to me that the people wanted it.

March 15th, 1922.

[Willow The Wisp]

17520673546534274711246374117652.jpg
it was certainly a fight that the fighters themselves wanted.

[travestyny]

17520673546534274711246374117652.jpg
it was certainly a fight that the fighters themselves wanted.

I doubt that. Broken contracts and farces like the one your picture references (wasn't that the dateless, venue-less proposal) say otherwise, but you are certainly free to your opinion. There were many who believed Dempsey wanted no part of it. Commissioners and promoters accused Dempsey of flat out ducking it.

Brady was Jeffries' and Corbett's manager and a significant promoter of the time.

[Bronson66]

The idea that Dempsey's commitment to defending his title (The World's Title) against Wills or Godfrey would make the fights occur, is not in keeping with the societal facts present at the time. Dempsey had admiration for Wills, sympathy for his plight; and limited control over the social architecture of the times.

Imagine today, a Hollywood movie celebrity extolling the virtues of **** and child ******ation.
"Oh, the kiddies love it!", he claims.
How would the public react?

That should give us a sense of what Dempsey and Wills were up against in the 1920's; the Ku Klux Claniest decade since the 1860's.

Only a fool would try to superimpose contemporary thinking on another age.



17520657521429163600661942540872.jpg

Only a biased fool would say McVey and Wills were not great fighters.

[Willow The Wisp]

Seems to me that the people wanted it.

March 15th, 1922.

As they did Johnson - Jeffries

[travestyny]

As they did Johnson - Jeffries

I think us real fight fans all want to see the best fight the best period.

Rickard initially wanted to stage the rematch between Johnson and Jeffries but Jeffries wasn't with it. His team also seemed down with a Wills / Dempsey fight in Montreal, but Dempsey claimed he couldn't get in shape in time. At some point after that he switched up and claimed he was afraid of riots. I'm just not buying it.

[Bronson66]

I think us real fight fans all want to see the best fight the best period.

Rickard initially wanted to stage the rematch between Johnson and Jeffries but Jeffries wasn't with it. His team also seemed down with a Wills / Dempsey fight in Montreal, but Dempsey claimed he couldn't get in shape in time. At some point after that he switched up and claimed he was afraid of riots. I'm just not buying it.

This is from a post made on this forum some time ago.

• "The great yearning of Harry Wills, heavyweight Negro, to clamber into a ring with Champion Dempsey has almost been equaled in recent months by the yearning of a great portion of the fight public to see Wills do so," read a Time magazine article in 1923. "So far Dempsey's sagacious management has been able to sidestep.”
  Dempsey's management kept sidestepping until Wills was past his prime – until, in fact, Dempsey was no longer champion. And Wills, instead of perhaps becoming one of boxing's great heavyweight champions, had to settle for being one of the greatest heavyweights never to win a world title."
  
  Here is what they say about his record before trying to get Dempsey in 26:
  
  Wills lost just once over a 53-bout span that ran from 1917 to 1925. The streak also included two draws, four no-decisions and three no contests. The lone defeat was a 1922 disqualification for knocking down an opponent on the break.
  
  On his style:
  
  "Wills, while capable at close quarters and in rough going, prefers the long range style, where he can bring into play his speed, skill and cleverness,"
  -1922 New York Times article
  
  
  On this Contract that Dempsey signed:
  
  "The outspoken editor had assured his readers that Wills, who was bright articulate and humble, was “a credit to the game and his race,' Jeffrey T. Sammons wrote in his book, Beyond the Ring: The Role of Boxing in American Society. "Wills himself reinforced that image by downplaying the significance of race in his quest for the title.”
  Ring consistently listed Wills among its top contenders, and calls began for a Wills-Dempsey bout. In July of 1922, the two signed to fight , but the New York Times questioned the validity of the agreement."In reality, the articles amount to little more than an indication of good faith on the boxers, for of necessity, the three all-important details – terms, time and place – are left blank," a Times story read
  
  So my friends this contract signed was nothing more than no real stipulations, no consideration, and no gurantee of a fight. A handshake agreement that the poster puts as Factual or a real agreement.
  
  Who Wills fought instead:
  
  A year went by before Dempsey fought again, and Wills wasn't his opponent. It was Tommy Gibbons, a blown-up middleweight Dempsey defeated by a 15-round decision
  
  Okay i give Gibbons more credit than being blown up, but the author is correct he was a much more safe opponent than Wills.
  
  
  On Wills chances:
  
  Dempsey had good reason to be wary of Wills. For one, he had trouble with fighters who had speed and boxing skill; like Tunney, Gibbons and Bill Brennan.
  Wills not only had boxing skill, but he was taller than the 6-1, 190-pound Dempsey, outweighed him by 25-30 pounds, and could hit substantially harder than Tunney, Gibbons or Brennan
  
  The author clearly things Wills had a hell of a shot even years after 1919.
  Everyone is entitled to their opinion about the Dempsey legacy, but those are quotes from publications of the time and what they felt. Ring, Time,and New York Times pretty much called a spade a spade."

[travestyny]

This is from a post made on this forum some time ago.

• "The great yearning of Harry Wills, heavyweight Negro, to clamber into a ring with Champion Dempsey has almost been equaled in recent months by the yearning of a great portion of the fight public to see Wills do so," read a Time magazine article in 1923. "So far Dempsey's sagacious management has been able to sidestep.”
  Dempsey's management kept sidestepping until Wills was past his prime – until, in fact, Dempsey was no longer champion. And Wills, instead of perhaps becoming one of boxing's great heavyweight champions, had to settle for being one of the greatest heavyweights never to win a world title."
  
  Here is what they say about his record before trying to get Dempsey in 26:
  
  Wills lost just once over a 53-bout span that ran from 1917 to 1925. The streak also included two draws, four no-decisions and three no contests. The lone defeat was a 1922 disqualification for knocking down an opponent on the break.
  
  On his style:
  
  "Wills, while capable at close quarters and in rough going, prefers the long range style, where he can bring into play his speed, skill and cleverness,"
  -1922 New York Times article
  
  
  On this Contract that Dempsey signed:
  
  "The outspoken editor had assured his readers that Wills, who was bright articulate and humble, was “a credit to the game and his race,' Jeffrey T. Sammons wrote in his book, Beyond the Ring: The Role of Boxing in American Society. "Wills himself reinforced that image by downplaying the significance of race in his quest for the title.”
  Ring consistently listed Wills among its top contenders, and calls began for a Wills-Dempsey bout. In July of 1922, the two signed to fight , but the New York Times questioned the validity of the agreement."In reality, the articles amount to little more than an indication of good faith on the boxers, for of necessity, the three all-important details – terms, time and place – are left blank," a Times story read
  
  So my friends this contract signed was nothing more than no real stipulations, no consideration, and no gurantee of a fight. A handshake agreement that the poster puts as Factual or a real agreement.
  
  Who Wills fought instead:
  
  A year went by before Dempsey fought again, and Wills wasn't his opponent. It was Tommy Gibbons, a blown-up middleweight Dempsey defeated by a 15-round decision
  
  Okay i give Gibbons more credit than being blown up, but the author is correct he was a much more safe opponent than Wills.
  
  
  On Wills chances:
  
  Dempsey had good reason to be wary of Wills. For one, he had trouble with fighters who had speed and boxing skill; like Tunney, Gibbons and Bill Brennan.
  Wills not only had boxing skill, but he was taller than the 6-1, 190-pound Dempsey, outweighed him by 25-30 pounds, and could hit substantially harder than Tunney, Gibbons or Brennan
  
  The author clearly things Wills had a hell of a shot even years after 1919.
  Everyone is entitled to their opinion about the Dempsey legacy, but those are quotes from publications of the time and what they felt. Ring, Time,and New York Times pretty much called a spade a spade."

It's really a shame this fight didn't happen. So much of it seems similar to the May/Pac fiasco, but at least they fought, albeit too late.

I rarely engage in fantasy matchup decisions because so much has to be considered. A boxer can have an off night on any given day. In their primes, I don't think I can pick between them. In '26 I would think Dempsey had the edge. They were both past prime but I think Wills was a shade more over the hill, especially being the older, more active guy who had been in wars with better competition.

[Willow The Wisp]

I doubt that. Broken contracts and farces like the one your picture references (wasn't that the dateless, venue-less proposal) say otherwise, but you are certainly free to your opinion. There were many who believed Dempsey wanted no part of it. Commissioners and promoters accused Dempsey of flat out ducking it.

Brady was Jeffries' and Corbett's manager and a significant promoter of the time.

I understand fully. Where I part company with you on this particular subject, and with Brady as well, is in supposing that I can reach inside of Dempsey's head.

The issue from my perspective, is in doing so in order to slander Jack Dempsey's good name, and laying the blame for the fight not happening at his feet.

Unimaginable today, are the social pressures associated with a black challenger a scant dozen years after the country saw massive riots occur throughout the country, in major cities and smaller communities all over the U.S. such as Atlanta, Georgia; Cincinnati, Ohio; Houston, Texas; New York, New York and St. Louis, Missouri, Keystone, West ******ia Mounds, Illinois, Baltimore, Maryland; Chicago, Illinois; Clarksburg, West ******ia; Columbus, Ohio; Dayton, Ohio; Fort Worth, Texas; Johnson County, Missouri; Kansas City, Missouri; Little Rock, Arkansas; Los Angeles, California; Louisville, Kentucky; New Orleans, Louisiana; Norfolk, ******ia; Omaha, Nebraska; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Roanoke, ******ia; Springfield, Illinois; St. Joseph, Missouri and Wheeling, West ******ia which all saw organized violent disturbances, in one of the worst episodes of racial unrest in the nation's history, before or since.

Dempsey, more than 100 years later we feel, should have, what? Pushed harder for the fight to have been made?

How was Dempsey supposed to do that?

Between 1918 and 1926, effectively parallel to Dempsey's reign as champion, Harry Wills was arguably the best heavyweight on the planet, save for Dempsey, and at a minimum the best contender for the title. That, is widely accepted, then and now.
It is certainly unjust that he never got his opportunity for the title challenge; as are the deaths and injuries of those caught up in the violent reaction to the last time promoters put profits above public safety.

Brady's work on behalf of renowned black cyclist Marshall Walter "Major" Taylor and Matthew Alexander Henson, the black arctic explorer who was part of the expedition that may have been the first to reach the geographic North Pole in1909, demonstrate his deep lifelong commitment to racial justice in the U.S., and it is that which drove his speaking out in support of Harry Wills.

[travestyny]

I understand fully. Where I part company with you on this particular subject, and with Brady as well, is in supposing that I can reach inside of Dempsey's head.

The issue from my perspective, is in doing so in order to slander Jack Dempsey's good name, and laying the blame for the fight not happening at his feet.

Unimaginable today, are the social pressures associated with a black challenger a scant dozen years after the country saw massive riots occur throughout the country, in major cities and smaller communities all over the U.S. such as Atlanta, Georgia; Cincinnati, Ohio; Houston, Texas; New York, New York and St. Louis, Missouri, Keystone, West ******ia Mounds, Illinois, Baltimore, Maryland; Chicago, Illinois; Clarksburg, West ******ia; Columbus, Ohio; Dayton, Ohio; Fort Worth, Texas; Johnson County, Missouri; Kansas City, Missouri; Little Rock, Arkansas; Los Angeles, California; Louisville, Kentucky; New Orleans, Louisiana; Norfolk, ******ia; Omaha, Nebraska; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Roanoke, ******ia; Springfield, Illinois; St. Joseph, Missouri and Wheeling, West ******ia which all saw organized violent disturbances, in one of the worst episodes of racial unrest in the nation's history, before or since.

Dempsey, more than 100 years later we feel, should have, what? Pushed harder for the fight to have been made?

How was Dempsey supposed to do that?

Between 1918 and 1926, effectively parallel to Dempsey's reign as champion, Harry Wills was arguably the best heavyweight on the planet, save for Dempsey, and at a minimum the best contender for the title. That, is widely accepted, then and now.
It is certainly unjust that he never got his opportunity for the title challenge; as are the deaths and injuries of those caught up in the violent reaction to the last time promoters put profits above public safety.

Brady's work on behalf of renowned black cyclist Marshall Walter "Major" Taylor and Matthew Alexander Henson, the black arctic explorer who was part of the expedition that may have been the first to reach the geographic North Pole in1909, demonstrate his deep lifelong commitment to racial justice in the U.S., and it is that which drove his speaking out in support of Harry Wills.

Well of course only he knows what he was thinking for sure, but he did give us a little bit. He broke a contract to fight the man. I assume if he wanted to fight him, he simply wouldn't have broken the contract. Why go through the motions of making the fight if race riots so put you off from it?

It's clear to me that he was complicit in ducking this match. But as to why, that is what I can't say. My personal opinion is that he felt he could have beaten Wills, but he didn't want to take the chance of losing to a Black fighter and having his legacy have that kind of mark on it like what happened to Jeffries. His wife apparently was a racist and a loss to Wills wouldn't be a good look.

He did have a history of avoiding Black fighters after one broke a few of his ribs. He had his name attached to an article that clearly stated he would fight any 2 White challengers but not a Black one before he was even champion, and he drew the color line a couple of times, while also at times saying he renounced the color-line.

Langford, alive and well at this time, also noted the games Dempsey was playing with Wills and stated he could come to no conclusion other than Dempsey being a bit afraid of Wills. I think he was more afraid of a possible loss to Wills.