Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

[Bronson66]

Yeah I know about that.

My question was, if he was dominate and he knew the fight would be popular (in France) why not grab the easy Langford fight?

As the story stands right now, he beat the guy easy, a fight was offered for good money in France, he didn't want the fight.

Logicaly speaking one of the above must be wrong. You don't walk away from an easy payday.

He was never offered his $30,000 asking price for a title defense against either Langford or McVey anywhere but in Australia.

Beating Langford easily in1906 is a different proposition to beating him from 1908 when he Johnson was champion, onwards .

Prime for prime Clay Moyle who has written an excellent biography of Langford,believes Johnson beats Langford,

John L Sullivan said Langford would lose to Jack too, but would a dissipated, ill trained, Johnson, who did not live the life, beat an in shape 175/180lbs Langford ?

Who has suggested that a rematch between Johnson and Langford a few years later would be another walk over for Johnson?

Johnson was getting over $30,000 for defending against Ketchel and Flynn in the States,why would he risk defending against a much more dangerous opponent in Langford in France for $10,000 less?

Johnson was beating the White Hopes the racists kept pushing his way,beating them easily, and getting very well paid for it,without having to put his aging frame through a tortuous training regimen,to attain the sort of conditioning he would have needed to be in to beat his three fellow black adversaries.

Why would he risk travelling to another country where his challengers were extremely popular, pay his travelling and training expenses out of his purse , train like he never trained for any of his defences except for Jeffries,just to take a ,reduced by a third, purse?

You mentioned logic ,well tell me where the logic is in that?

The only promoters who were eventually prepared to give Johnson his asking price of $30,000 to defend against one of the black trio,[Jeannette,] in the States were the McMahon's ,and the NYAC , in the city where Jeannette was most popular vetoed the fight and threatened any promoter who dared to put it on with the withdrawal of his NY license.
The three major US promoters of the era were.
Rickard
Curley
Coffroth

They are on public record as saying, "two blacks fighting for the Heavyweight title in the US wouldn't draw flies"

Johnson turned down offers of $10,000,$15,000,and $20,000 to defend against Jeannette in Paris,but when the offer was increased to $30,000 to fight him in the US he accepted. Where is the contradiction in his actions there?

Let me put a case here if I may.
Usyk is offered $1000,000 to defend against Parker or $ 3000,000 to defend against Whyte, which would he take?

If you were Usyk which would you take?


Every couple of weeks somebody states Johnson avoided his most dangerous challengers, they make this statement without ever taking the trouble to do any actual research into it .

One poster in particular has made a career out of a hating crusade against Johnson.

The astonishing fact is this same poster gives his idol JimJeffries a complete pass for avoiding his own black challengers.Consistent?

Sullivan
Corbett
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
Hart
Heavyweight Vanilla Champions .

All drew the colour line as champion,but that's okay, let's just beat up on Jack Johnson because he wanted top dollar to defend against his black challengers,who by the way were certainly also among his most dangerous ones.

Just as Jackson was to Sullivan and Corbett,before Jeffries came along.
and Johnson,Martin, and McVey were to Jeffries.

Jeffries turned down a good guaranteed purses to fight McVey,and Martin, and took considerably less in defences against no hopers like Finnegan and Munroe.
Disgusted with his purse for Munroe, he retired whilst is his prime.


How many on this thread have addressed the original subject.


Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime ?
And how many have eagerly used it as an excuse to just dump on Johnson?

[Bronson66]

Yeah this was an easy one:

Johnson beat Langford up and Langford was the one who told everyone, thats how we know

but being self admitted, it just shows Langfords character- I don�t doubt he improved and learned from the match - as well as matured physically.

I believe he called Johnson a �smooth operator� which brings light to his style as the frame rates improve with AI upscaling.

Yes of course he matured physically, how much he improved we can only guess,he had already had 56 fights,that's a long career today.

[them_apples]

Johnson floored Langford 3 times for long nine counts,broke his nose and cut his eye.

That's a pretty decisive beating imo.

"Johnson handed me the only real beating I ever took.! Sam Langford.
Johnson wanted $30,000 and only two promoters ever came up with the money.
McIntosh for Johnson to defend against both Langford and McVey in Australia, Johnson signed the contract

The McMahon Brothers for Johnson to defend against Jeannette in NY.Johnson signed the contract.

This is in Pollack's 2nd Vol on Johnson, "The Reign."

Yeah this was an easy one:

Johnson beat Langford up and Langford was the one who told everyone, thats how we know

but being self admitted, it just shows Langfords character- I don’t doubt he improved and learned from the match - as well as matured physically.

I believe he called Johnson a “smooth operator” which brings light to his style as the frame rates improve with AI upscaling.

[Willie Pep 229]

Johnson floored Langford 3 times for long nine counts,broke his nose and cut his eye.

That's a pretty decisive beating imo.

"Johnson handed me the only real beating I ever took.! Sam Langford.
Johnson wanted $30,000 and only two promoters ever came up with the money.
McIntosh for Johnson to defend against both Langford and McVey in Australia, Johnson signed the contract

The McMahon Brothers for Johnson to defend against Jeannette in NY.Johnson signed the contract.

This is in Pollack's 2nd Vol on Johnson, "The Reign."

Yeah I know about that.

My question was, if he was dominate and he knew the fight would be popular (in France) why not grab the easy Langford fight?

As the story stands right now, he beat the guy easy, a fight was offered for good money in France, he didn't want the fight.

Logicaly speaking one of the above must be wrong. You don't walk away from an easy payday.

[Bronson66]

If Jack Johnson gave Langford 'such a beating' why didn't Johnson grab the easy payday when Langford was offered to him in France?

Johnson floored Langford 3 times for long nine counts,broke his nose and cut his eye.

That's a pretty decisive beating imo.

"Johnson handed me the only real beating I ever took.! Sam Langford.
Johnson wanted $30,000 and only two promoters ever came up with the money.
McIntosh for Johnson to defend against both Langford and McVey in Australia, Johnson signed the contract

The McMahon Brothers for Johnson to defend against Jeannette in NY.Johnson signed the contract.

This is in Pollack's 2nd Vol on Johnson, "The Reign."

[GhostofDempsey]

�

Yet you can't prove it...

[GhostofJuliusStreicher]

He was offered a Langford fight on several occasions but always found a way out, even after his verbal agreements to fight him, which of course meant nothing. He even accepted $5,000 which was closer to $1,000 for the Battling Jim fight rather than $10K - $20K offers from Langford, Jeannette, McVey. In his own words, he was the first black champion and he'd be the only black champion.

…

[GhostofDempsey]

If Jack Johnson gave Langford 'such a beating' why didn't Johnson grab the easy payday when Langford was offered to him in France?

He was offered a Langford fight on several occasions but always found a way out, even after his verbal agreements to fight him, which of course meant nothing. He even accepted $5,000 which was closer to $1,000 for the Battling Jim fight rather than $10K - $20K offers from Langford, Jeannette, McVey. In his own words, he was the first black champion and he'd be the only black champion.

[Willie Pep 229]

If Jack Johnson gave Langford 'such a beating' why didn't Johnson grab the easy payday when Langford was offered to him in France?

[Bronson66]

[QUOTE=Dr Z;n32507945]

How was Jeffries sick? /QUOTE]



Fitz who was present at the fight said Jeffreis wasn't a quarter of the man he fought. He was depressed ( that how he may be viewed as sick ) going into the fight, had not fought is 6 years, old, and fat. No one under these terms is going to win a high level fighter. If you disgree I give you all of boxing history. Show me one man who over came this and won.


But this thread is about Jack Johnson and his best five wins.


Who are they and do you think they rate with any famous heavyweight? Look at the ages, experience level's, and weight of his opponents. You will find he either beat very young or old men, very green heavyweights, and sub 170 pound men.


I say his best five wins don't rate vs. other tenured heavyweight champions ( not one poster will debate this )and his losses to Choynski, Griffin, Hart and numerous draws / news draws he had were better fighters than the very green and young or light men Jack J's met for his best five victories.


After all Choysnki, Griffin and Hart were seasoned guys, whereas Langford was young ( 20 ), and weighed in under 160 pounds and was new to heavyweight fights.

Mcvey was even younger and very raw / inexperienced.


Jeanette was 0-3 when he first fought Johnson! A new to the game yet he defeated Jack once and drew with another time. So listing him as one of Jack's top 5 wins is fine. Jeanette says he was in the 160's when he meet Jack J.


Burns was sick as he weighed in at 168, today the super middleweight limit, and short 5'7 " ,but I think his record was good so he belongs in Jacks best 5 wins.

At least that is what Travesty thinks about his best five wins.

NO! This thread is about who beats a prime Johnson?

It doesn't need a psychotic Johnson hater . hi******* it for his own warped gratification!