Was James j jeffries one of the greatest?

[Dr Z]

I said nothing about Jack Johnson. You’re making up your own discussion and arguing it.

Well he is comparing common opponents as justifying Jeffries as a great.


In all case Jeffires did much better than Jack Johnson vs:


#1 Choynski. A green Jeffries ( 7th pro fight ) knocked him down ( he says multiple times in the Two 2 Fisted Jeff book ) and settled for a crowd hissing draw. Choynski years later slightly past his prime knocked Johnson out in three rounds. In fact he knocked him cold. Jonhson said his head was still ringing the next day



#2 Jeffries KO'd Hank Griffin in his prime and beat him badly over 4 rounds the second time.

A slightly past his prime Griffin decisioned Jack Johsnon, had to settle for a BS draw in the second fight and drew with the third match.


#3 Jeffries blew out Mexican Pete Everettt in 3 rounds. Johnson took a shop worn version of Everrtt the distance over 20 rounds in a draw.


#4 Jeffries blew out Munroe in two rounds. Johnson took a fat Munroe the distance in a win over six rounds.



Now you see the same four opponents, a difference in thier age / working condition, yet very different results.

Jeffries offered Johnson a private fight in a bar ( 1902 -1904 I do not have the exact date ) Johnson refused.


Jim Jeffries > Jack Johnson.

Johnson beat a six year inactive, old , rustry, 35 year old Jeffries who had to lose about 80 pounds to get into shape. The win in a pure boxing sense is about as big as Trevor Berbick over M. Ali.


All of the above fights are on Box Rec.

James J. Jeffries, still regarded by some fight historians as the single greatest heavyweight in history, was a fearsome and intimidating fighter who established plenty of credentials for himself in just 21 professional prizefights. He was the very embodiment of the rugged, two-fisted hulk of brawn that people at the turn of the century wanted their champion to be. It is unfortunate that his loss to Jack Johnson, after a six-year layoff from boxing, remains the best known moment of his career, for Jeffries' accomplishments were many. He fought nine bouts against future hall of famers and made seven defenses of the championship. His fighting prowess was so great, in fact, that respected boxing historian Tracy Callis wrote that Jeffries' combination of assets makes him the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time. Even Jack Johnson, Jeffries' more famous conqueror, before his own death in 1946, stated that he felt Jeffries was the best of any era. - Box Rec



There you have it.

- Dr Z

[QueensburyRules]

I'm seeing only two of his fights were filmed, but several of his championship fights were recreated in parts for film.

- - Been sipping U Mickeys again, eh?

Guaranteed after the Fitz/Corbett International BlockBu$ter where Jeffries first appears as the Giant in street clothes in the ring post fight, most of his title fights were filmed, but I don't have a definitive number since Boxing then and now has always been poorly regulated and poorly recorded.

[ShoulderRoll]

Well he is comparing common opponents as justifying Jeffries as a great.


In all case Jeffires did much better than Jack Johnson vs:


#1 Choynski. A green Jeffries ( 7th pro fight ) knocked him down ( he says multiple times in the Two 2 Fisted Jeff book ) and settled for a crowd hissing draw. Choynski years later slightly past his prime knocked Johnson out in three rounds. In fact he knocked him cold. Jonhson said his head was still ringing the next day



#2 Jeffries KO'd Hank Griffin in his prime and beat him badly over 4 rounds the second time.

A slightly past his prime Griffin decisioned Jack Johsnon, had to settle for a BS draw in the second fight and drew with the third match.


#3 Jeffries blew out Mexican Pete Everettt in 3 rounds. Johnson took a shop worn version of Everrtt the distance over 20 rounds in a draw.


#4 Jeffries blew out Munroe in two rounds. Johnson took a fat Munroe the distance in a win over six rounds.



Now you see the same four opponents, a difference in thier age / working condition, yet very different results.

Jeffries offered Johnson a private fight in a bar ( 1902 -1904 I do not have the exact date ) Johnson refused.


Jim Jeffries > Jack Johnson.

Johnson beat a six year inactive, old , rustry, 35 year old Jeffries who had to lose about 80 pounds to get into shape. The win in a pure boxing sense is about as big as Trevor Berbick over M. Ali.


All of the above fights are on Box Rec.

James J. Jeffries, still regarded by some fight historians as the single greatest heavyweight in history, was a fearsome and intimidating fighter who established plenty of credentials for himself in just 21 professional prizefights. He was the very embodiment of the rugged, two-fisted hulk of brawn that people at the turn of the century wanted their champion to be. It is unfortunate that his loss to Jack Johnson, after a six-year layoff from boxing, remains the best known moment of his career, for Jeffries' accomplishments were many. He fought nine bouts against future hall of famers and made seven defenses of the championship. His fighting prowess was so great, in fact, that respected boxing historian Tracy Callis wrote that Jeffries' combination of assets makes him the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time. Even Jack Johnson, Jeffries' more famous conqueror, before his own death in 1946, stated that he felt Jeffries was the best of any era. - Box Rec



There you have it.

- Dr Z

Why would Jack Johnson accept a private fight at a bar?

This is prizefighting. The heavyweight championship should be defended in public, with a fair referee and large purses paid to each combatant.

[Willie Pep 229]

Why would Jack Johnson accept a private fight at a bar?

This is prizefighting. The heavyweight championship should be defended in public, with a fair referee and large purses paid to each combatant.

He would not and Jeffries would never make such an offer.

It's a great story. Mike Tyson even used it once with a opponent. "Lets go downstairs and lock the basement door. See which one of us comes back up with the key."

Great story.

[solidman]

My guess is that Johnson would have beaten the prime Jeffries.

[Dr Z]

Why would Jack Johnson accept a private fight at a bar?

This is prizefighting. The heavyweight championship should be defended in public, with a fair referee and large purses paid to each combatant.

Jack challenged Jim to a fight in a bar. Jim said he would not draw files but accepted a private fight with him on the spot. Times were different then. Johnson tucked tail when he saw Jeffries was serious and left.

[JAB5239]

Jack challenged Jim to a fight in a bar. Jim said he would not draw files but accepted a private fight with him on the spot. Times were different then. Johnson tucked tail when he saw Jeffries was serious and left.

It was Jeffries who issued the challenge after refusing to meet Johnson in the riing Johnson didnt tuck tail. Fighting in a cellar is meningless. And a weak challenge knowing Johnson was going for History, not bragging rights.

[QueensburyRules]

Reverse racism? What does that even mean? Considering he wouldn't give a black fighters a shot at the title says the opposite. Jeffries was great in his day, but nearly everyone he fought was a lot smaller than him. He also had a very short career. You mentioned Nat Fleischer. Did Nat ever even see Jeffries fight or did he just hear these amazing stories from his dad and granddaddy? He was seventeen when Jeffries retired so what does he have to compare him to all time? He may have been at the Johnson fight, but we know what happened there. To me he's a tad bit overrated on an alltime scale. Not sure he even makes the top 20. Right now I'd say Usyk has surpassed him on an all-time great heavyweights list but would have to look at it more closely. Jeffries should still be regarded as a great fighter but there are some real question marks on where exactly to rate him considering his stance on not fighting a colored fighter while defending the title, the small stature of many if not most of his opponents and his short longevity.

- - Jeff fought 1/3rd of his career against fighters 'of color" with a overlap of JJohnson's fight with them with better results than JJ.

Moreover, he as champion risked his reputation by giving Johnson Slayer Hank Griffin a rematch after already KOing the first time in a nothing fight to prove a point. Had he lost, the usual monkeytoids around here including U would be crowing how sorry he was.

Had JJohnson not lost to Marvin Hart, Jeff would've fought him.

When he fought JJohnson 6 yrs after retirement, it was because the social landscape had changed that made the fight worth record setting purse$, something monkeys like U never experienced...yeah, everyday monkey day for U!!!

[Dr Z]

It was Jeffries who issued the challenge after refusing to meet Johnson in the riing Johnson didnt tuck tail. Fighting in a cellar is meningless. And a weak challenge knowing Johnson was going for History, not bragging rights.

He asked for it, but Jeffres said, " You would not draw files. " Instead he offered Johsnon a private fight on the spot. Johnson walked out.


Had Johnson takens his lumps, he could have misled the press al la Jack Munore and maybe that would have built up a purse that Jeffries was used to receiving. Jeffries received about 30k for the Corbett and Fitzsimmons II re-matches.


OR

Had Johnson beaten Marvin Hart in early 1905 maybe then a Reno like purse would have been enough for Jeffries. This is only speculation.

Neither happened. Judging Jeffries off his 1910 performance when he was old, had not fought in 6 years and had to lose about 80 pounds to get in shape means very little. In fact it means nothing. As stated we don't judge Ali based on one match in his last fight vs. Berbick.

As I indicated between real results of 1899 - 1906 of common opponents Jeffries was superior across the board and did not lose in the common matches twice. Johnson has numerous losses to other men and many draws to 2nd and 3rd raters. These are the facts.

In a 1901-1906 match, Jeffries would beat Johnson based on the common opponent's foguht and their results among them. Besides, he was much bigger than the 180- 190 lbs Johsnon. You mentioned that Jeffires beat some of his famous opponents this size. Johsnon was a small cruiser weight guy. Size does matter. So does being in your prime.

[Dr Z]

He would not and Jeffries would never make such an offer.

It's a great story. Mike Tyson even used it once with a opponent. "Lets go downstairs and lock the basement door. See which one of us comes back up with the key."

Great story.

The story of James Jeffries offering Jack Johnson a fight in a bar refers to an incident around 1903 or 1904, when Johnson, the first African American Colored Heavyweight Champion, sought a title shot against Jeffries, the reigning World Heavyweight Champion. According to historical accounts, Johnson entered Jeffries’ saloon in San Francisco and challenged him to a title fight. Jeffries, aware of the racial and political climate that made such a match controversial, reportedly refused a formal ring fight, citing that Johnson had “no name” and the bout wouldn’t draw a crowd. Instead, Jeffries allegedly proposed a private fight in the saloon’s cellar, saying, “I won’t meet you in the ring because you’ve got no name and we won’t draw flies. But I’ll go downstairs to the cellar with you and lock the door from the inside. And the one who comes out with the key will be the champ.”