Naoya Inoue's place in history

[JAB5239]

My boy. Hope all is well.

IMO his place in history is solidified. I can’t say he is better than Harada because I knowledge of him and his career is limited.

Inoue’s resume is great. His ability to move up and retain power is special. I also looking forward to him b Nakatani.

IMO, right below Roy and Floyd, with Usyk, Bhop and Manny in terms of best since the 4 kings era.

I think if he could get up to LW and beat Tank, you have to put him alongside Roy and Floyd, maybe even above them.

What's going on my friend? Hope all is well with you also.

Inoue is up there no doubt, even if he doesn't get to lightweight. I'd love to see him do it, but I don't think he beats Tank. I'd put him up (not sure where yet) with the best fighters of the last 30 years. Surprised not to see any mention of Crawford. Do you think Nayoa has surpassed Crawford at this point?

[The Big Dunn]

What's going on my friend? Hope all is well with you also.

Inoue is up there no doubt, even if he doesn't get to lightweight. I'd love to see him do it, but I don't think he beats Tank. I'd put him up (not sure where yet) with the best fighters of the last 30 years. Surprised not to see any mention of Crawford. Do you think Nayoa has surpassed Crawford at this point?

I have Crawford behind Usyk and Inoue right now. But if he beats Canelo clean and clear, I will move him up to #1 p4p.

[QueensburyRules]

Inoue has the numbers so far, to at least be considered, for nomination as a great fighter... I do not think much of the HOF, for which Inoue is a shoo in, the real Gold Ring is ATG status. He may have to take a chance and jump up at some point. Sometimes a fighter has to go where the action is. One thing he has going for him is his depth. Hamed was, at the end of the day a very athletic, undisciplined puncher. He got beat and set off the path by a guy who just could hang in there and box him expertly enough to get there with his own punch. When Hamed couldn't find a crack he fell...

Unlike Hamed Inoue has a giant toolbox. To me this means he can make adjustments and find a way to get his power into play. With that said some great men with skills, organization and a punch, have fallen to Pan, the God of wine and chaos! Alexis to Pryor, Duran to Ian B... Like most men of smaller stature Inoue's power is more conditional than that of a great Middleweight, to heavyweight Puncher. Power is the ****e (Dune). It is an equalizer and major advantage in the lighter divisions where so many punches can be thrown.

If Apollo was boxing's original patron saint, representing organization and technical excellence... Then Pan is his constant opponent, chaos with a mean streak. Robinson was considered the best by many, but some felt Armstrong was better. These fighters seem to represent these fundamental differences.

Before even comparing him to Harada let us see how he does in his own era.

- - Inoue has fought in Arum crooked jurisdictions and won. It's beyond belief anyone could doubt his rigorous conviction, training, and matchmaking.

Harada was the funner fighter for being a nonstop slugger and Japan's first boxing star.

[Willow The Wisp]

Great post Willow! Scholars in history tend to portray the xenophobic side of Japanese interaction but there is a whole other side which you make reference to. I actually have a translated manuscript that originally was written in Portugese and Japanese detailing an exchange of swprd technique between Spanish Fencing, probably the most combat relatable tradition in Europe at the time of Commodor Perry, Katori Shinto Ryu, A Koryu tradition of Samurai sword, and Kendo, a modern "Do" taken from the older sword and grappling traditions.

Jigo Kano himself incorporated Western Wrestling, and other such things into Judo when he created the style and Brazil was always a Japanese haven for Japanese Expats, since the voyage of Perry. Sumo is actually the lone indigenious Japanese art... not atypically most martial traditions in the world can be traced back to a form of wrestling, Ju Jutsu was itself a blend of Sumo Te, Chinese and Okinawan Boxing styles and the Samurai comprehensive systems which started development as an organized faction probably in the Warring states period. Of course Japan brought Ju Jutsu to its apex, probably because unlike all the claims of the many new martial arts, these systems were documented systems used on the battle fields.

Exchanges between the different arts are kind of like measuring the age of when human beings originated: it keeps getting pushed back to an older and older date. As far back as the Greek civilization we know there was familiarity with Indian ideas and Greek Pancration could have been influenced (and vice Versa) by Indian Martial arts from Alexander the Great. Indias martial traditions came into Asia many moons ago... More recently in the 18 hundreds there were documented Boxing versus Ju Jutsu matches in Hawai and the other Ploynesian islands.

BNrazil has had all styles of folk wrestling and boxing, along with the arts of Japan, so these contests definitely were also held over there. And finally Robert Trias, sometimes called the first man to bring Karate back as a large scale enterprise, was an excellent boxer in the military when some small Okinawan guy would show up to the gym and ask for a spar. The guy was ignored until finally Trias agreed to just shut the guy up. Through like 5 rounds Trias could not lay a glove on the guy and the guy was able to show Trias what he could do to him without harming him and An ambassador for modern Karate in the States was born!

Good post buddy.

[QueensburyRules]

Japan, already long noted for their homegrown fighting styles of Sumo and Jujitsu, began it's western boxing history in 1854, when an American boxer-sailor named Matthew Perry landed at Shimoda, Shizuoka soon after the Convention of Kanagawa, which opened Japan up to trade and diplomatic relations with the United States. At that time, American sailors often engaged in sparring matches on board their ships, with their fists wrapped in thin leather. These were the first recorded examples of boxing demonstrated in Japan; and the Japanese were dully impressed by what they witnessed; and it was not long before the sport, it's rules and techniques, caught on throughout the empire.

Bear in mind, that this was a full 68 years before Karate came to mainland Japan!

That's right. Modern Karate developed when Gichin Funakoshi (1868 - 1957), a school teacher and student of Okinawan karate masters Yasutsune Itosu and Yasutsune Azato, was invited to Japan by the Japanese Department of Education to demonstrate Karate in Tokyo, in 1922.
By that time, Boxing was THE major professional sport not only in Japan, but in China (Zhili Clique, Hunan Clique, Guizhou Clique and Anhui Clique), French Indochina, the Philippines, the Korean Empire and the Kingdom of Siam, in what for many, is a seldom mentioned history.

The first important all-Japanese card was held in Tsukiji, Tokyo in 1887. The first boxing gym established to train local talent was the Meriken Training Institute in Ishikawachō, Yokohama, operated by James Hōjō and Toranosuke Saitō, opened in 1896; and the first tutorial book available throughout Japan, Bōgeki Jizai Seiyō Kentōjutsu, was published in 1900.

Yujiro Watanabe, a noted boxer, went abroad in 1906 to settle in San Francisco, in order to learn the finer points of the art from American masters who included Olympian Sam Berger. He returned to Japan where he became known as "The Father of modern Japanese Boxing". He established Nippon Kentō Club in Shimomeguro, Meguro, Tokyo, on December 25, 1921, as the boxing scene in Tokyo was exploding.
The school turned out Sadayuki Ogino, one of Japan's first sporting stars, along with Kinzaburō Yokoyama, Fuji Okamoto and Kintarō Usuda who became Japan's first official national champions, as stipulated by the Nippon Kentō Club, starting in 1922.

Packey " The Speed Demon" O'Gatty (Born Pasquale Agati in Cannitello, Calabria, Italy) finished up his 65 bout Featherweight career touring Asian countries, landing in Tokyo in 1928, where he defeated several of Japan's best.
The All-Japan Professional Kentō Association, later renamed the Japan Pro Boxing Association (JPBA), was founded in February 1931 in order to establish national and regional championships and promote the development of professional boxers nationally.
Japan's boxing was interrupted by the outbreak of World War 2, and the first Japanese championships after the war were held in 1947.

Yoshio Shirai became the nation's very first World Champion on May 19, 1952, by defeating Dado Marino of Hawaii over 15 rounds, for the National Boxing Association World Flyweight title in Tokyo.
Japan has since fielded many outstanding professionals, particularly in the lower to mid weight classes.

The best of these includes, in my humble opinion:


1. Masahiko "Fighting" Harada, 1960-70
2. Naoya Inoue, 2012-Current. (And rising like the Sun)
3. Masao Oba, 1966-73
4. Tsuneo "Piston" Horiguchi, 1933-50
5. Hiroyuki Ebihara, 1959-69
6. Hiroshi Kobayashi, 1962-71
7. Hiroshi Horiguchi, 1943-54
8. Junto Nakatani, 2015-Current
9. Yoshio Shirai, 1943-55
10.Jiro Watanabe, 1979-86
11.Takeshi Sasazaki, 1934-50
12.Koichi Wajima, 1968-77
13.Shinsuke Yamanaka, 2006-18
14.Kenshiro Teraji, 2014-Current
15.Tomoki Kameda, 2008-24
16.Kazuto Ioka, 2009-24
17.Kuniaki Shibata, 1965-77
18.Daisuke Naito, 1996-10
19.Shozo Saijo, 1964-71
20.Takashi Uchiyama, 2005-16
21.Takahiro Ao, 2003-18
22.Toshiaki Nishioka, 1994-12
23.Takashi Miura, 2003-17
24.Guts Ishimatsu, 1966-78
25.Andy Hiraoka, 2013-24

Hope this helps to establish a basis for this conversation.

- - Insight!!!

Who knew?

[Willie Pep 229]

Japan, already long noted for their homegrown fighting styles of Sumo and Jujitsu, began it's western boxing history in 1854, when an American boxer-sailor named Matthew Perry landed at Shimoda, Shizuoka soon after the Convention of Kanagawa, which opened Japan up to trade and diplomatic relations with the United States. At that time, American sailors often engaged in sparring matches on board their ships, with their fists wrapped in thin leather. These were the first recorded examples of boxing demonstrated in Japan; and the Japanese were dully impressed by what they witnessed; and it was not long before the sport, it's rules and techniques, caught on throughout the empire.

Bear in mind, that this was a full 68 years before Karate came to mainland Japan!

That's right. Modern Karate developed when Gichin Funakoshi (1868 - 1957), a school teacher and student of Okinawan karate masters Yasutsune Itosu and Yasutsune Azato, was invited to Japan by the Japanese Department of Education to demonstrate Karate in Tokyo, in 1922.
By that time, Boxing was THE major professional sport not only in Japan, but in China (Zhili Clique, Hunan Clique, Guizhou Clique and Anhui Clique), French Indochina, the Philippines, the Korean Empire and the Kingdom of Siam, in what for many, is a seldom mentioned history.

The first important all-Japanese card was held in Tsukiji, Tokyo in 1887. The first boxing gym established to train local talent was the Meriken Training Institute in Ishikawachō, Yokohama, operated by James Hōjō and Toranosuke Saitō, opened in 1896; and the first tutorial book available throughout Japan, Bōgeki Jizai Seiyō Kentōjutsu, was published in 1900.

Yujiro Watanabe, a noted boxer, went abroad in 1906 to settle in San Francisco, in order to learn the finer points of the art from American masters who included Olympian Sam Berger. He returned to Japan where he became known as "The Father of modern Japanese Boxing". He established Nippon Kentō Club in Shimomeguro, Meguro, Tokyo, on December 25, 1921, as the boxing scene in Tokyo was exploding.
The school turned out Sadayuki Ogino, one of Japan's first sporting stars, along with Kinzaburō Yokoyama, Fuji Okamoto and Kintarō Usuda who became Japan's first official national champions, as stipulated by the Nippon Kentō Club, starting in 1922.

Packey " The Speed Demon" O'Gatty (Born Pasquale Agati in Cannitello, Calabria, Italy) finished up his 65 bout Featherweight career touring Asian countries, landing in Tokyo in 1928, where he defeated several of Japan's best.
The All-Japan Professional Kentō Association, later renamed the Japan Pro Boxing Association (JPBA), was founded in February 1931 in order to establish national and regional championships and promote the development of professional boxers nationally.
Japan's boxing was interrupted by the outbreak of World War 2, and the first Japanese championships after the war were held in 1947.

Yoshio Shirai became the nation's very first World Champion on May 19, 1952, by defeating Dado Marino of Hawaii over 15 rounds, for the National Boxing Association World Flyweight title in Tokyo.
Japan has since fielded many outstanding professionals, particularly in the lower to mid weight classes.

The best of these includes, in my humble opinion:


1. Masahiko "Fighting" Harada, 1960-70
2. Naoya Inoue, 2012-Current. (And rising like the Sun)
3. Masao Oba, 1966-73
4. Tsuneo "Piston" Horiguchi, 1933-50
5. Hiroyuki Ebihara, 1959-69
6. Hiroshi Kobayashi, 1962-71
7. Hiroshi Horiguchi, 1943-54
8. Junto Nakatani, 2015-Current
9. Yoshio Shirai, 1943-55
10.Jiro Watanabe, 1979-86
11.Takeshi Sasazaki, 1934-50
12.Koichi Wajima, 1968-77
13.Shinsuke Yamanaka, 2006-18
14.Kenshiro Teraji, 2014-Current
15.Tomoki Kameda, 2008-24
16.Kazuto Ioka, 2009-24
17.Kuniaki Shibata, 1965-77
18.Daisuke Naito, 1996-10
19.Shozo Saijo, 1964-71
20.Takashi Uchiyama, 2005-16
21.Takahiro Ao, 2003-18
22.Toshiaki Nishioka, 1994-12
23.Takashi Miura, 2003-17
24.Guts Ishimatsu, 1966-78
25.Andy Hiraoka, 2013-24

Hope this helps to establish a basis for this conversation.

DIGRESSION

RE BOLD: The advantage of being a small people.

Japanese Olympic Free Style Wresting Results, first three weights classes only. 1964-1988

1964 - Gold - Gold -Gold

1968 - Gold - Gold - Gold

1972 - out -Gold - Gold

1976 - Bronze - Gold - Bronze

1980 - Nonparticipant

1984 - Silver - Bronze - Gold

1988 - Gold - Gold - out

This six time Oylmpic domination is amazing. Even the Russian were scare of the Japanese.

During the off years (non-Olympic years) the Japanese dominated the first three weight class of the World Championships as well.

Most competition takes place in the middle weights, i.e. the biggest pool of available participants in most nations lie in the middle weights.

Low weight boxers and wrestlers are usually competing against a smaller population pool of competition. This gives Japan an advantage. Its largest pool of athletes are in the lowest divisions.

This I suspect applies to most developed Asian nations.