The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[billeau2]

Everybody knew Spinks didn't stand a cat in hell's chance of beating Tyson. HBO were selling the fight by hyping it up to be more important and significant than it actually was. Queensberry and Top Rank played the same game by selling Tyson Fury's comeback fights against no-hopers like Seferi, Schwarz and Wallin as lineal title defences. Then PBC joined the rip-off party by selling Fury vs Wilder as a WBC and lineal title unification fight. The imaginary lineal title is a great way for promoters, networks, etc, to rip of gullible fans.

So? What is the point? What does any of that have to do with the lineal? In your little mind if I hand you a cherry lollipop and insist it is G****, that means there is something wrong with some lollipop[s being cherry. Anyone can call anything what they want. Any concept or idea can be changed to suit other interests...

Example: "Ground Zero" is a term that has been coopted entirely. Do you know what it actually means? I give you a 50/50 assuming you do not look it up. But does the way the term is used now detract from what it truly signifies? NO!!!!!!

[billeau2]

Of course I recognise that. And I have been trying to get you to recognise the implications of what that means. There was never any such thing as a lineal title, as such, that could be fought for as a stand-alone entity. Rather, lineal championship status was earned retrospectively, as a result of winning a fight for one or more of the recognised title belts.

Wrong. It simply has no relation. Hereis the flaw in your logic BTW, if what you said was true then it would apply in both directions. The belts would become undisputed and called the lineal, but... the lineal cannot become one of many alphabet belts. Therefore they are obviously distinct ent iti es.

[billeau2]

Damn .. nobody is paying sanctioning fees to fight for a title that doesn't exist. How amazing is that?

Bivol became the undisputed champion by winning all 4 recognised title belts, plus the Ring title, and nobody has beaten him since. That's why he is The Man at LHW. If you want to call him the lineal champion, I have no argument with that. But he does not hold a lineal title. There is no such thing as a lineal title.

Wrong again... Sanctioning fees have nothing to do with the lineal, the point was, and is, they show a special interest beholdent to that interest. Can you try to think logically and not just try to characterize the lineal based on the alphabet belts? They are different! Entirely different aspects of status in boxing.

[Willie Pep 229]

Of course I recognise that. And I have been trying to get you to recognise the implications of what that means. There was never any such thing as a lineal title, as such, that could be fought for as a stand-alone entity. Rather, lineal championship status was earned retrospectively, as a result of winning a fight for one or more of the recognised title belts.

You're saying there has to be recognizable organizations in support, before a lineal title can be decided?

It the "lineal title" exisited before sanctioning bodies got involved it just wasn't called such.

[kafkod]

Wrong again... Sanctioning fees have nothing to do with the lineal, the point was, and is, they show a special interest beholdent to that interest. Can you try to think logically and not just try to characterize the lineal based on the alphabet belts? They are different! Entirely different aspects of status in boxing.

Bill, with respect, I'm not going to carry on discussing this point with you. There really is no point going back and forth ad nauseam like this.

[kafkod]

You're saying there has to be recognizable organizations in support, before a lineal title can be decided?

It the "lineal title" exisited before sanctioning bodies got involved it just wasn't called such.

In the comment from you I replied to you said this: "The rise of the sanctioning bodies in the 1980s forced the creation of the retronym "lineal."

What you are talking about there is the name given to a concept. Before the existence of multiple sanctioning bodies, that concept wasn't needed and therefor, it didn't exist either. You said so yourself in that comment.

[Marchegiano]

I don't see any way lineal can be considered more than an idea if not attached to something more than an idea.

It's as real as like love, hope, hate, and depression are real. and just a definable.

Look as those who "get it" come together with competing definitions and I do not mean the debates.


I have to say, I thought I got the angle but clearly I don't.


It seem all proponents of lineal really hate a rigid definition because there is no rigid definition that can be placed across all generally accepted lineages. and there is no consistency across lineage because it is just an idea like love and if all us who ever experienced love defined it we'd all have variations, none of which would match every situation labeled love or even loving.



TBH my biggest issue with lineal isn't that it struggles beyond any clarification of the vaguest definitions but rather despite the stated goal of this thread I can not for the life of me see how lineal is important to anything.


It is so unimportant in fact its existence is debatable.


Is love important to human life? Debatable isn't it? One can very much be platonic about everything and be content, others not so much.






Lineal is a cult.

[Willie Pep 229]

In the comment from you I replied to you said this: "The rise of the sanctioning bodies in the 1980s forced the creation of the retronym "lineal."

What you are talking about there is the name given to a concept. Before the existence of multiple sanctioning bodies, that concept wasn't needed and therefor, it didn't exist either. You said so yourself in that comment.

OK! What are we in disagreement about?

[JAB5239]

Damn .. nobody is paying sanctioning fees to fight for a title that doesn't exist. How amazing is that?

Bivol became the undisputed champion by winning all 4 recognised title belts, plus the Ring title, and nobody has beaten him since. That's why he is The Man at LHW. If you want to call him the lineal champion, I have no argument with that. But he does not hold a lineal title. There is no such thing as a lineal title.

Lineal exists, you just have no understanding of it. You can't see it so you claim it isn't so. I can't see the wind so it must not be real, right?

Bivol does hold the lineal title and it's pretty easy to trace. Much easier I'd say than trying to figure out the ABC orgs not only taking their trinket away, but than just handing over to another guy without him ever having had to fight for it. Only when the two best fight can a title truly be gained. Anything else might as well have come out of a box of cracker jacks.

[kafkod]

Lineal exists, you just have no understanding of it. You can't see it so you claim it isn't so. I can't see the wind so it must not be real, right?

Bivol does hold the lineal title and it's pretty easy to trace. Much easier I'd say than trying to figure out the ABC orgs not only taking their trinket away, but than just handing over to another guy without him ever having had to fight for it. Only when the two best fight can a title truly be gained. Anything else might as well have come out of a box of cracker jacks.

Your wind analogy is as silly as the rest of your argument. Wind exists, it can be felt, measured, contained, diverted, used to propel ships and generate electricity, etc, etc.
Lineal titles have no objective or legal existence. They are nothing but ideas planted in the minds of naive, suggestible fans, to part them from their money.