Be critical of Tommy Burns

[Bronson66]

At the start of the footage we see Burns sparring with Al Kaufman,this was 9 days before the fight.Burns sure doesn't look well here does he?

Burns weighed 171lbs for his title defence against Gunner Moir ONE YEAR before he fought Johnson,that is a difference of TWO AND A HALF POUNDS.
In his title defence 3 months before Burns was174lbs for Bill Lang previous defences

Flynn 171lbs,O Brien 172lbs.
Burns several times publicly stated he was in the best condition of his life for the fight and his public workouts confirmed this.
There is no primary source that states Burns was ill going into the fight.
There are no verified statements from Burns that he was ill going into the fight,nor that he asked for a postponement.
BURNS NEVER REFERRED TO BEING ILL BEFORE THE FIGHT.

To continue to say otherwise is part and parcel of a concerted Johnson hate agenda ,and this forum ,knowing the source of these fairy tales, and the obvious attempt to tarnish Johnsons victory, will treat them with the derision they deserve.
Anyone who knows boxing is aware that sometimes fights are postponed ,because of injury or, in the case of outdoor staged ones the weather,several of Louis' fights were delayed in this fashion, Ali v Foreman etc.
Tickets already sold are always honoured at a later date.To suggest otherwise is just so much BS.

After the fight Burns acknowledged he was beaten fairly ,later he began to make excuses ,some of which were quite ludicrous,one being he was," coming on," in the fight,and Johnson was tiring, and so Johnson's corner,seeing this began to shout for the fight to be stopped.Actually at the end of the 13th round the Police went to Burns' corner to check on his condition,with a mind to halt the one sided contest,which they duly did in the middle of the next round with Burns having been heavily floored and on the verge of being ko'd.

I have researched the Johnson v Burns fight and have 7 books on Johnson dealing with the fight. I can produce primary sourced quotes from the principals and have done so.
NOBODY HAS PRODUCED VERIFIED STATEMENTS THAT REBUT THEM.NOR WILL THEY. BECAUSE THEY DO NOT EXIST.

[travestyny]

You have an odd obsession with color lines while trying to inflate the legacies of mediocre fighters. Dempsey himself did not draw the color line. His manager did and for valid reasons. Several states refused to allow it for one thing. Despite that honest attempts at fighting Wills were made by Dempsey. Even Wills himself acknowledged Dempsey never ducked him. There were a lot of politics to navigate, especially after Burns lost his title to Johnson and the ensuing riots.

The Post-Standard (Syracuse, New York) - Saturday 20th December 1958

Not true. Dempsey did draw the color-line. He did it twice.





And Wills did indeed blame Dempsey at some points in his career. Whether he changed his mind or was just being diplomatic later in life when he is quoted as not blaming him, only he knows.

“I don’t expect ever to meet Dempsey in the ring,” said a resigned Wills. “He has been dodging me for many years and now I am convinced he has been kidding all along.

https://www.nydailynews.com/2003/09/...s-chapter-131/

[Dr Z]

Burns weighed 171lbs for his title defence against Gunner Moir ONE YEAR before he fought Johnson,that is a difference of TWO AND A HALF POUNDS.
In his title defence 3 months before Burns was174lbs for Bill Lang previous defences

Flynn 171lbs,O Brien 172lbs.
Burns several times publicly stated he was in the best condition of his life for the fight and his public workouts confirmed this.
There is no primary source that states Burns was ill going into the fight.
There are no verified statements from Burns that he was ill going into the fight,nor that he asked for a postponement.
BURNS NEVER REFERRED TO BEING ILL BEFORE THE FIGHT.

To continue to say otherwise is part and parcel of a concerted Johnson hate agenda ,and this forum ,knowing the source of these fairy tales, and the obvious attempt to tarnish Johnsons victory, will treat them with the derision they deserve.
Anyone who knows boxing is aware that sometimes fights are postponed ,because of injury or, in the case of outdoor staged ones the weather,several of Louis' fights were delayed in this fashion, Ali v Foreman etc.
Tickets already sold are always honoured at a later date.To suggest otherwise is just so much BS.

After the fight Burns acknowledged he was beaten fairly ,later he began to make excuses ,some of which were quite ludicrous,one being he was," coming on," in the fight,and Johnson was tiring, and so Johnson's corner,seeing this began to shout for the fight to be stopped.Actually at the end of the 13th round the Police went to Burns' corner to check on his condition,with a mind to halt the one sided contest,which they duly did in the middle of the next round with Burns having been heavily floored and on the verge of being ko'd.

I have researched the Johnson v Burns fight and have 7 books on Johnson dealing with the fight. I can produce primary sourced quotes from the principals and have done so.
NOBODY HAS PRODUCED VERIFIED STATEMENTS THAT REBUT THEM.NOR WILL THEY. BECAUSE THEY DO NOT EXIST.

Quoting yourself?

Once again. The Flynn fight was years before. Burns was in the upper 170's to mid 180s leading up to his fight ( seven fights ) with Johnson. But as I said the " super middleweight" was ill at and at low weight at 168.5 lbs.

Was hitting in the kidneys allowed in the rules too? Johnson did that several times. Burns asked McIntosh to delay the fight becasue he was getting over being sick but he said too late, the tickets are all sold. You will have to research it youself. I posted wikipedia on the illness

https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/010744

[GhostofDempsey]

What riots after Burs lost to Johnson? Where did they happen?

Correction: I should have said Jeffries, not Burns. Regardless, the ensuing riots influenced color lines, particularly for HW divison.

[travestyny]

I'm not completely convinced riots influenced the color-line ducking.

For one, Rickard was pushing for a rematch of Johnson vs. Jeffries in an environment where the flames were still being put out.

p0c3W7.png

Also, even when Rickard and his matchmaker, Flournoy, tried to get Dempsey to agree to fight Wills in Montreal, Dempsey declined claiming that he couldn't get in shape in time.

[billeau2]

Saying you won't fight a man because he's black is verry different from give me 30K and I'll fight him.

"I will not fight a man who is Black."

"I will give you a million dollars to fight this man."

"How Black did you say he was?"

[billeau2]

Quoting yourself?

Once again. The Flynn fight was years before. Burns was in the upper 170's to mid 180s leading up to his fight ( seven fights ) with Johnson. But as I said the " super middleweight" was ill at and at low weight at 168.5 lbs.

Was hitting in the kidneys allowed in the rules too? Johnson did that several times. Burns asked McIntosh to delay the fight becasue he was getting over being sick but he said too late, the tickets are all sold. You will have to research it youself. I posted wikipedia on the illness

https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/010744

Johnson that creep! The only fighter to ever hit to the kidneys on occasion... No other fighter would ever even imagine. That is what they all said... "That JJ, always threatening my Kidney sale to China..."

You see how silly your post is about JJ? have you watched fighters from that era? JJ was never known as a dirty fighter. He was known as a trickster, being strong, and innovating certain techniques. Nowhere is there a footnote to his success citing kidney blows, rabbit punches, etc.

[Bronson66]

Johnson that creep! The only fighter to ever hit to the kidneys on occasion... No other fighter would ever even imagine. That is what they all said... "That JJ, always threatening my Kidney sale to China..."

You see how silly your post is about JJ? have you watched fighters from that era? JJ was never known as a dirty fighter. He was known as a trickster, being strong, and innovating certain techniques. Nowhere is there a footnote to his success citing kidney blows, rabbit punches, etc.

Haters have to hate!

[Dr Z]

Johnson that creep! The only fighter to ever hit to the kidneys on occasion... No other fighter would ever even imagine. That is what they all said... "That JJ, always threatening my Kidney sale to China..."

You see how silly your post is about JJ? have you watched fighters from that era? JJ was never known as a dirty fighter. He was known as a trickster, being strong, and innovating certain techniques. Nowhere is there a footnote to his success citing kidney blows, rabbit punches, etc.

It was not that he targeted and hit the kidneys. That is bad. But to do this vs a super middle when the fight is very much one sided? Johnson fouled often so.... Going low, hitting the kidneys, and hitting on the brake, in addition to dirty fighting when hitting and holding was not allowed in some fights... I can list some of these fouls.

Bill do you know what I'm talking about?

[billeau2]

It was not that he targeted and hit the kidneys. That is bad. But to do this vs a super middle when the fight is very much one sided? Johnson fouled often so.... Going low, hitting the kidneys, and hitting on the brake, in addition to dirty fighting when hitting and holding was not allowed in some fights... I can list some of these fouls.

Bill do you know what I'm talking about?

Do u know what you are talking about? There were no breaks back then. seldom did the ref separate fighters. Holding and grappling were part of every day fighting techniques. Watch Corbett instructing Tunney and how to trap the glove while hitting with the other hand as an example.

Holding? Okay to be fair? You're not the only individual to misunderstand this so let me try to clarify something. Pre-classical boxing had two ranges. You were either a stance between you and the opponent with your weight on your back leg, or you were holding. Does that make sense? Watch fights don't believe me.