Be critical of Tommy Burns

[QueensburyRules]

This is nonsense Burns was on the floor in the first 2 minutes,it was a one sided beatdown,I've read the round by round report.
" The fans witnessed,the White Champion humbled,and beaten silly by the Negro giant.Johnson hammered Burns for 14 rds".The Melbourne Age.
"It wasn't until the 4th round that Burns made any kind of a dangerous attack,it was still Johnson's round though ."Thereafter Johnson commenced a most beastly exhibition of rubbing it into a man,a man who was fighting a game battle,but was altogether overmatched.Johnson did as he liked and he did it in good

humour,goading the White man on with sneering remarks laughing at the hardest body blows,and replying with a quick retort to the incessant comments and advice from the seconds in Burns corner".The Bulletin.

" Burns was outclassed completely.The contest was one-sided throughout.Burns was outmatched in every round,and was severely punished while Johnson seemed quite unharmed."The Sydney Daily Telegraph.

" Johnson won in every department of the game,and at every stage of the contest.He represents a class in himself.Burns was very badly punished ,while Johnson was unmarked and practically unhit."The Morning Herald

There are dozens of these reports in The Rise , Pollack's Johnson book.


Explain why Johnson would need to have someone shout for the fight to be stopped at the moment when he had dropped Burns?

Explain why the referee ,the promoter, and a close friend of the Champion would take notice of an anonymous voice?
Why would anyone need to crawl under the ring to shout for a stoppage?
How would they be heard under there with all the crowd noise from above?

Explain why the Police Captain would stop the fight because someone in the crowd shouted stop it?

Burns was never in the fight,all ringside reporters were unanimous on that.

Burns retired for a year and a half after the thrashing Johnson gave him.

Burns had no problem fighting black's,he was provisionally set to fight Langford as one point,but the fight fell through. Once Champion Burns declared he was willing to defend against Sam McVey in Paris.
" Give me a purse of $25,000,split $20,000 to the winner $5000 to the loser,and a side bet of $5000,and I'll fight McVey here." French promoters, like the NSC were not willing to pay anywhere near that amount.

Johnson signed to fight Langford ,for £1000 [$5000] well before he won the title from Burns,once Champion he stated the $5000 he was offered to fight Langford ,[the same as he got for challenging Burns ] would now have to be increased to parity with what Burns had received for defending against himself $30,000.
You have made some decent posts lately,but you have let yourself down badly with this BS.

- - I've seen the fight and Burns was very aggressive in taking the fight to JJohnson. Not a whipping, not even definitive as there were no criteria for wins other than KOs or ref's decision.

Basically JJohnson was the proverbial T urd in the punchbowl...yeah!!!

[Marchegiano]

Holding and hitting during the clinches was mutually agreed before the fight

Burns ,who was considered a master of infighting said later, he bitterly regretted agreeing to holding and hitting in the clinches because he had not realized how strong,and clever Johnson was.
Just prior to the fight Burns stated he was in the best shape of his life,he had trained religiously ,and given public workouts right up to the fight.
Neither before or after did Burns ever make illness as an excuse for losing.
" I have never been better,I am now fitter than I have ever been to defend the title"
Burns and the promoter/referee ,H D McIntosh were close friends.If Burns had been ill, does anyone think he would not have asked for a postponement,and does anyone think it would not have been granted?

At 1681/2lbs Burns was just 1 1/ 2lbs lighter than he had been for his title defence against Jim Flynn, as I have already said , he had shed all surplus fat from his torso. The weights were from their public weigh in, the day before the fight.


" I wlll surely be in shape for the big Negro, better than I ever was ,as it is the ambition of my life to beat him."Burns

"I have never drawn the color line.There never was a champion before me who gave a Negro a chance to win the title,and I simply named a good stiff price for my end of the match,and I am getting it too." Burns.

Well, there you have it. Burns is quoted. He at least believed he was not guilty of drawing the color line at any point in his career.

[Bronson66]

- - I've seen the fight and Burns was very aggressive in taking the fight to JJohnson. Not a whipping, not even definitive as there were no criteria for wins other than KOs or ref's decision.

Basically JJohnson was the proverbial T urd in the punchbowl...yeah!!!

You have seen the complete fight?
Which rounds do you give Burns?
Burns finished with a bloody nose, cuts over both eyes,a cut and bleeding mouth,and a grotesquely swollen jaw.

Johnson was unmarked and went for a swim after the fight.

Produce a single contemporary fight report that states Burns was even competitive?

For every 1 that you post,I'll post 5 stating Burns got a bad beating.
Want to play?

Jack Johnson vs. Tommy Burns (1908) | Championship Fight

[Marchegiano]

just bronson's embedded

[Bronson66]

You have seen the complete fight?
Which rounds do you give Burns?
Burns finished with a bloody nose, cuts over both eyes,a cut and bleeding mouth,and a grotesquely swollen jaw.

Johnson was unmarked and went for a swim after the fight.

Produce a single contemporary fight report that states Burns was even competitive?

For every 1 that you post,I'll post 5 stating Burns got a bad beating.
Want to play?

Jack Johnson vs. Tommy Burns (1908) | Championship Fight

At the start of the footage we see Burns sparring with Al Kaufman,this was 9 days before the fight.Burns sure doesn't look well here does he?

[Marchegiano]

At the start of the footage we see Burns sparring with Al Kaufman,this was 9 days before the fight.Burns sure doesn't look well here does he?

You willing to call this debate a draw and award Queen the title "Historian" are ya?

[GhostofDempsey]

You have an odd obsession with color lines while trying to inflate the legacies of mediocre fighters. Dempsey himself did not draw the color line. His manager did and for valid reasons. Several states refused to allow it for one thing. Despite that honest attempts at fighting Wills were made by Dempsey. Even Wills himself acknowledged Dempsey never ducked him. There were a lot of politics to navigate, especially after Burns lost his title to Johnson and the ensuing riots.

The Post-Standard (Syracuse, New York) - Saturday 20th December 1958

IMG_3210.jpg

[Anomalocaris]

You have an odd obsession with color lines while trying to inflate the legacies of mediocre fighters. Dempsey himself did not draw the color line. His manager did and for valid reasons. Several states refused to allow it for one thing. Despite that honest attempts at fighting Wills were made by Dempsey. Even Wills himself acknowledged Dempsey never ducked him. There were a lot of politics to navigate, especially after Burns lost his title to Johnson and the ensuing riots.

The Post-Standard (Syracuse, New York) - Saturday 20th December 1958

IMG_3210.jpg

Wills sounds like a real gentleman.

Very classy indeed.

[Bronson66]

You have an odd obsession with color lines while trying to inflate the legacies of mediocre fighters. Dempsey himself did not draw the color line. His manager did and for valid reasons. Several states refused to allow it for one thing. Despite that honest attempts at fighting Wills were made by Dempsey. Even Wills himself acknowledged Dempsey never ducked him. There were a lot of politics to navigate, especially after Burns lost his title to Johnson and the ensuing riots.

The Post-Standard (Syracuse, New York) - Saturday 20th December 1958

IMG_3210.jpg

What riots after Burs lost to Johnson? Where did they happen?

[Dr Z]

Holding and hitting during the clinches was mutually agreed before the fight

Burns ,who was considered a master of infighting said later, he bitterly regretted agreeing to holding and hitting in the clinches because he had not realized how strong,and clever Johnson was.
Just prior to the fight Burns stated he was in the best shape of his life,he had trained religiously ,and given public workouts right up to the fight.
Neither before or after did Burns ever make illness as an excuse for losing.
" I have never been better,I am now fitter than I have ever been to defend the title"
Burns and the promoter/referee ,H D McIntosh were close friends.If Burns had been ill, does anyone think he would not have asked for a postponement,and does anyone think it would not have been granted?

At 1681/2lbs Burns was just 1 1/ 2lbs lighter than he had been for his title defence against Jim Flynn, as I have already said , he had shed all surplus fat from his torso. The weights were from their public weigh in, the day before the fight.


" I wlll surely be in shape for the big Negro, better than I ever was ,as it is the ambition of my life to beat him."Burns

"I have never drawn the color line.There never was a champion before me who gave a Negro a chance to win the title,and I simply named a good stiff price for my end of the match,and I am getting it too." Burns.

The Flynn fight was years before. Burns was in the upper 170's to mid 180s leading up to his fight ( seven fights ) with Johnson. But as I said the " super middleweight" was ill at and at low weight at 168.5 lbs.

Was hitting in the kidneys allowed in the rules too? Johnson did that several times. He asked McIntosh to delay the fight becasue he was getting over being sick but he said too late, the tickets are all sold. You will have to research it youself. I posted wikipedia on the illness

https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/010744