Be critical of Tommy Burns

[Marchegiano]

Burns drew the color line before he fought Johnson, and as far as I know he is the only black fight he meet. So…..

Saying you won't fight a man because he's black is verry different from give me 30K and I'll fight him.

[JAB5239]

Boxing was so much different back then. Just learned this today. So apparently Tommy Burns had plaster of Paris on his hand wraps for his fight with Hugo Kelly. Jack Root who was cornering Kelly objected to it so Burns took it off. No fuss, no big to do. Now i will never claim to be well versed in Burns history as a whole, but i have a decent grasp, of boxing history and just thought it would have heard of this before now. Apparently it's in Adam Pllocks book about Burns. Just found that interesting.

[JAB5239]

Saying you won't fight a man because he's black is verry different from give me 30K and I'll fight him.

That's more than 104 million in today's money. Color lines or not i doubt ANY fighter would turn that down.

[JAB5239]

In 1904 Burns fought Billy Woods aka Black Hercules.

[Marchegiano]

That's more than 104 million in today's money. Color lines or not i doubt ANY fighter would turn that down.

Didn't Wilder turn down 150?


At least give me consistency points ****


I don't put words in their mouths or guess their motivations. If Dempsey can say Wills but for X and Tunney can say Wills but for X and never actually fight Wills or be considered ducking behind the colorline because they never specifically said they'd not fight Wills because he's black, then Mr Burns can certainly call for X and fight the man to prove it was for money not because he's black.


If I'm taking Gene ****ing Tunney FFS at his word, then I'm taking Burns and everyone else at theirs. No speculation needed. Hell, I don't actually give a **** if someone agrees with my speculations.


So let's be very clear. When I say drew the colorline I don't mean in my opinion. I mean that's what the report says. That's what the fighter said. You certainly don't have to but for clear communication's sake; I have no opinion, I'm asking for reports, about reports, and sharing reports. If what you hold and excuse on colorline is opinion based, that's cool, but we don't mean the same thing.



That said, if you look, I think you will find Tommy denying black fighters on the grounds they are black or some such similar verbiage. Sometime around the time he got married maybe?

[Bronson66]

- - Wasn't a one sided match, it was fixed with a premature stoppage after one of JJohnson's lackeys crawled underneath the ring to scream for a stoppage that prompted the Police.

Burns had buddy he defended his belt thrice against as they toured the world. Got ripped off when JJohnson skipped out on the agreed up rematch and then stiffed his mandatory Langford in England.

Still screaming colorline with baited breath again, eh?

This is nonsense Burns was on the floor in the first 2 minutes,it was a one sided beatdown,I've read the round by round report.
" The fans witnessed,the White Champion humbled,and beaten silly by the Negro giant.Johnson hammered Burns for 14 rds".The Melbourne Age.
"It wasn't until the 4th round that Burns made any kind of a dangerous attack,it was still Johnson's round though ."Thereafter Johnson commenced a most beastly exhibition of rubbing it into a man,a man who was fighting a game battle,but was altogether overmatched.Johnson did as he liked and he did it in good

humour,goading the White man on with sneering remarks laughing at the hardest body blows,and replying with a quick retort to the incessant comments and advice from the seconds in Burns corner".The Bulletin.

" Burns was outclassed completely.The contest was one-sided throughout.Burns was outmatched in every round,and was severely punished while Johnson seemed quite unharmed."The Sydney Daily Telegraph.

" Johnson won in every department of the game,and at every stage of the contest.He represents a class in himself.Burns was very badly punished ,while Johnson was unmarked and practically unhit."The Morning Herald

There are dozens of these reports in The Rise , Pollack's Johnson book.


Explain why Johnson would need to have someone shout for the fight to be stopped at the moment when he had dropped Burns?

Explain why the referee ,the promoter, and a close friend of the Champion would take notice of an anonymous voice?
Why would anyone need to crawl under the ring to shout for a stoppage?
How would they be heard under there with all the crowd noise from above?

Explain why the Police Captain would stop the fight because someone in the crowd shouted stop it?

Burns was never in the fight,all ringside reporters were unanimous on that.

Burns retired for a year and a half after the thrashing Johnson gave him.

Burns had no problem fighting black's,he was provisionally set to fight Langford as one point,but the fight fell through. Once Champion Burns declared he was willing to defend against Sam McVey in Paris.
" Give me a purse of $25,000,split $20,000 to the winner $5000 to the loser,and a side bet of $5000,and I'll fight McVey here." French promoters, like the NSC were not willing to pay anywhere near that amount.

Johnson signed to fight Langford ,for £1000 [$5000] well before he won the title from Burns,once Champion he stated the $5000 he was offered to fight Langford ,[the same as he got for challenging Burns ] would now have to be increased to parity with what Burns had received for defending against himself $30,000.
You have made some decent posts lately,but you have let yourself down badly with this BS.

[Marchegiano]

This might be a bit of a liberty, I'm really not sure. From Pollack, sam subject, different community:

Initially, he was very clear that he was NOT drawing the color line. He had fought black fighters en route to the title as well. However, later he said his wife, a southern lady, insisted that he would draw the line, and hence he was doing so. Yet, sometime thereafter, Burns said that after he had cleaned up all the top whites, if there was a large enough monetary offer, he would cross the line. Once he was offered his asking price, he signed to fight Johnson. He won the title in 1906 and by late 1908 he fought Johnson. Bottom line is I don't think Burns had any real qualms about fighting a black fighter. He was all about maximizing his pocketbook.

To be fair, I'm a lot less provoking there. not that I don't do it, but they need a lot less to get going so i don't juxtapose them the same way i do this place.

[JAB5239]

Didn't Wilder turn down 150?


At least give me consistency points ****


I don't put words in their mouths or guess their motivations. If Dempsey can say Wills but for X and Tunney can say Wills but for X and never actually fight Wills or be considered ducking behind the colorline because they never specifically said they'd not fight Wills because he's black, then Mr Burns can certainly call for X and fight the man to prove it was for money not because he's black.


If I'm taking Gene ****ing Tunney FFS at his word, then I'm taking Burns and everyone else at theirs. No speculation needed. Hell, I don't actually give a **** if someone agrees with my speculations.


So let's be very clear. When I say drew the colorline I don't mean in my opinion. I mean that's what the report says. That's what the fighter said. You certainly don't have to but for clear communication's sake; I have no opinion, I'm asking for reports, about reports, and sharing reports. If what you hold and excuse on colorline is opinion based, that's cool, but we don't mean the same thing.



That said, if you look, I think you will find Tommy denying black fighters on the grounds they are black or some such similar verbiage. Sometime around the time he got married maybe?

Deontay turned down a 100 mil 3 fight deal. Only worth 10k in 1908 per fight.

You may be right, I can't say with any authority. I do know he fought at least one black fighter before becoming champion. Other than that idks. I dont have a horse in this race, im just trying to learn something new.

[travestyny]

This is nonsense Burns was on the floor in the first 2 minutes,it was a one sided beatdown,I've read the round by round report.
" The fans witnessed,the White Champion humbled,and beaten silly by the Negro giant.Johnson hammered Burns for 14 rds".The Melbourne Age.
"It wasn't until the 4th round that Burns made any kind of a dangerous attack,it was still Johnson's round though ."Thereafter Johnson commenced a most beastly

exhibition of rubbing it into a man,a man who was fighting a game battle,but was altogether overmatched.Johnson did as he liked and he did it in good

humour,goading the White man on with sneering remarks laughing at the hardest body blows,and replying with a quick retort to the incessant comments and advice from the seconds in Burns corner".The Bulletin.

" Burns was outclassed completely.The contest was one-sided throughout.Burns was outmatched in every round,and was severely punished while Johnson seemed quite unharmed."The Sydney Daily Telegraph.

" Johnson won in every department of the game,and at every stage of the contest.He represents a class in himself.Burns was very badly punished ,while Johnson was unmarked and practically unhit."The Morning Herald

There are dozens of these reports in The Rise , Pollack's Johnson book.


Explain why Johnson would need to have someone shout for the fight to be stopped at the moment when he had dropped Burns?

Explain why the referee ,the promoter, and a close friend of the Champion would take notice of an anonymous voice?
Why would anyone need to crawl under the ring to shout for a stoppage?
How would they be heard under there with all the crowd noise from above?

Explain why the Police Captain would stop the fight because someone in the crowd shouted stop it?

Burns was never in the fight,all ringside reporters were unanimous on that.

Burns retired for a year and a half after the thrashing Johnson gave him.

As a non Champion Burns had no problem fighting black's,he was provisionally set to fight Langford as one point,but the fight fell through.
You have made some decent posts lately,but you have let yourself down badly with this BS.

Only way someone crawled under that ring to shout "stop the fight" was to save Burn's life.

[max baer]

Tommy_Burns_1912.jpg he didn't look very hard did he??
Even I have a better physique then him here Tommy_Burns_1912.jpg .
I even think queeny could have given burns a bit of a beating.