Be critical of Tommy Burns

[Bronson66]

Tommy_Burns_1912.jpg he didn't look very hard did he??
Even I have a better physique then him here Tommy_Burns_1912.jpg .
I even think queeny could have given burns a bit of a beating.

Burns was often a bit on the chubby side,for Johnson he was ripped,with no surplus on his frame.

[Dr Z]

Saying you won't fight a man because he's black is verry different from give me 30K and I'll fight him.

Agreed. In prize fighting, money has a fighter's interest first. Gone were the past champions and quality contenders. Burns had a very weak lot left to fight. So he accepted the terms given of $30,000 to fight Johnson.


Johnson's numerous draws and losses prior must have figured somewhat into Burn's decision. That and the MONEY.

[Dr Z]

Burns was often a bit on the chubby side,for Johnson he was ripped,with no surplus on his frame.

He has those child bearing hips

[Dr Z]

In 1904 Burns fought Billy Woods aka Black Hercules.

Oh right you are. And he drew with him in 15 rounds. It was a middle wieght fight.

[Bronson66]

Burns was often a bit on the chubby side,for Johnson he was ripped,with no surplus on his frame.

"I don't think I can beat him,but I will give him the fight of his life."Burns. Feb 1908


"You gave me more of a fight than Jeffries did." Johnson to Burns. Autumn,1910.

[Marchegiano]

Fitz asked for 45K for Corbett so 30k to break the color line isn't even a high figure actually. I'm not excusing it, just normalizing it. seemed high in the vacuum of 30K in 1907ish but check the going rate of a HW champ; it's mid.



If you mean to scan Burn's record on boxrec for the black men, Harry Peppers will likely sneak past you.

Nothing to indicate he was black there. I mean, they actually have a picture of the dude in his own profile, but I have been told before that picture is definitely of a white man.


Here's some reporting for any who needs a little more than my word and does not like Boxrec's photo on Mr. Peppers

Tommy Burns, who claimed and successfully defended the title after the retirement of Jeffries, sedulously avoided Sam Langford, although he had previously boxed a Negro named Harry Peppers. Burn kept out of Langford's reach but finally fell victim to Jack Johnson.

My question is did he claim color line or did he ask for more money than Sam was able to raise?

Seems odd to avoid Sam and fight Jack otherwise. Might catch some **** for this but I would imagine Jack's the scarier customer. The outcome could have been worse for Tommy if he died or some such but he really could not have been shown up any more by Lang than he was Jack. Just an absolute embarrassment.


That said, it does seem pretty clear Tommy did avoid some black fighters. What is unclear, atm, is did he avoid black fighters because they were black or because they were broke? Did the white fighters, most of which you guys don't even respect, actually bring in the money Tommy was asking for, or, was the going rate 30K to a tough man and much lower for an easy man?




I don't actually believe prize ringers are scared of anyone, even an ass whooping. I do not mean to imply Mr. Burns was scared, just that he wanted the most money he could get. Big pay days or a bunch of easier fights in quicker order.

[Bronson66]

"I don't think I can beat him,but I will give him the fight of his life."Burns. Feb 1908


"You gave me more of a fight than Jeffries did." Johnson to Burns. Autumn,1910.

The purses for the Corbett v Fitzsimmons fight were as follows
$15,000 winner take all.

Each side was to post,$2,500 with a third party to guarantee his appearance. Seats for the fight were priced at , $5,$10,$20,$40.

Both men agreed to accept one third of the monies from the Kinetoscope Company for the sale of the film.
Bob Fitzsimmons In The Ring. Adam Pollack.

[Marchegiano]

The purses for the Corbett v Fitzsimmons fight were as follows
$15,000 winner take all.

Each side was to post,$2,500 with a third party to guarantee his appearance. Seats for the fight were priced at , $5,$10,$20,$40.

Both men agreed to accept one third of the monies from the Kinetoscope Company for the sale of the film.
Bob Fitzsimmons In The Ring. Adam Pollack.

Doesn't mean Fitz didn't ask for 45K.

Did Burns get paid the 30K? Was his stipulation 30k for himself, or it's a 30k fight? Like how Barbados Walcott had a set rate of 8k for a few years, if the fight was 10 total he wanted 8 and if it was 20k he still wanted 8k?


Also, what's Pollack's source? The paper I saw was a during negotiations, as in the fight had not yet happened. I'll find it and post it if you like but it's not really the same information, it doesn't detract or corroborate. You might find it interesting.

[Dr Z]

Bronson66

"I don't think I can beat him,but I will give him the fight of his life."Burns. Feb 1908


"You gave me more of a fight than Jeffries did." Johnson to Burns. Autumn,1910.

" Burn's was the easiest man I ever fought ". Jack Johnson.

Burns went down several times during the match. He was ill as his low weight of 168 pounds shows. Read the news reviews of the fight.

Johnson held him, and mixed in some uppercuts while holding and kidney shots too. Along with easily beating a 5'7" man on the outside.

As heavyweight champion, Burns never gave a shot to Jack Sullivan who beat him in 1905, or Hugo Kelly who drew with him twice! Why? No re-match for Hart either.

The title of the tread is. " Be critical of Tommy Burns " I have done so..

[Bronson66]

The purses for the Corbett v Fitzsimmons fight were as follows
$15,000 winner take all.

Each side was to post,$2,500 with a third party to guarantee his appearance. Seats for the fight were priced at , $5,$10,$20,$40.

Both men agreed to accept one third of the monies from the Kinetoscope Company for the sale of the film.
Bob Fitzsimmons In The Ring. Adam Pollack.

Holding and hitting during the clinches was mutually agreed before the fight

Burns ,who was considered a master of infighting said later, he bitterly regretted agreeing to holding and hitting in the clinches because he had not realized how strong,and clever Johnson was.
Just prior to the fight Burns stated he was in the best shape of his life,he had trained religiously ,and given public workouts right up to the fight.
Neither before or after did Burns ever make illness as an excuse for losing.
" I have never been better,I am now fitter than I have ever been to defend the title"
Burns and the promoter/referee ,H D McIntosh were close friends.If Burns had been ill, does anyone think he would not have asked for a postponement,and does anyone think it would not have been granted?

At 1681/2lbs Burns was just 1 1/ 2lbs lighter than he had been for his title defence against Jim Flynn, as I have already said , he had shed all surplus fat from his torso. The weights were from their public weigh in, the day before the fight.


" I wlll surely be in shape for the big Negro, better than I ever was ,as it is the ambition of my life to beat him."Burns

"I have never drawn the color line.There never was a champion before me who gave a Negro a chance to win the title,and I simply named a good stiff price for my end of the match,and I am getting it too." Burns.