What Is Your Opinion About Jake Lamotta? Was He An ATG?

[MarbleFallsMauler]

- - Don't think Hollywood ever made a decent boxing movie.

Early TV did with Requiem for a Heavyweight written by one of the most creative media writers in History, Rod Sterling-

***Fictional aging heavyweight Louis Mountain Rivera (Anthony Quinn) is felled by young Cassius Clay, the future Muhammad Ali, and finds his professional career over. His manipulative manager (Jackie Gleason) owes money on bets placed against Rivera, and convinces him to become a wrestler.

Also introduced soon to be legendary Jack Palance who boxed. Clay was the Olympic Gold Medalist still in his training pants getting knocked down by Sonny Banks when with it was filmed.
Requiem-for-a-Heavyweight-e1591295983616.jpg?w=620&h=360&crop=1.jpg

Check out The Set Up with Robert Ryan.

[Willie Pep 229]

IMHO The problem with Hollywood boxing films is their inability to find a dramatic arc that doesn't end with the 'big fight.'

The trope comes in many flavors, the underdog fighting for redemption, the cross fighter trying to stay clean and standing up to the mob, the finished fighter facing reality, Etc.

Raging Bull is the only boxing film that doesn't complete its dramatic arc with the 'big fight' cliché.

Scorsese stated that he wasn't looking for reality in the fight sequences but instead was trying to convey how the brutality of each fight was breaking the man down.

I have not been able to find a second boxing film that figured out how to convey a boxing story without using the overused 'big fight' trope at some point in the film.

IMO Other than the original Rocky (I) the entire Rocky/Creed series should be run through a ban saw.

P.S. Not sure why we want to see a realistic representation of a prize fight when we can watch one live (on TV).

If we were talking about a gladiatoral fight to the death, with sword and shield, then I would understand why we need movie magic to recreate it. But why make a big deal out of recreating something that actually exists?

[billeau2]

Hope you don't mind me jumping in on Bill and your conversation.

The Irish in Us. A 1935 Jimmy Gagney film.

Gagney used Harvey Parry a stunt-man's stuntman, and an AAU boxing champion as his go to guy for the fight scenes.

Parry both choreographed the fight scenes and also served as the opponent for the 'big fight' climax.

Parry spent a couple of months with Gagney and taught him how to box. For the final fight scenes they actually sparred making for a very realistic looking fight.


P.S. Harvey Parry tells a great story about Tom Mix, matinee cowboy star.

Mix was supposed to hit Parry sending him over a barroom table. Mix use to wear these white gloves and when the scene came Tom Mix just nailed stuntman Parry with a real punch.

Parry was angry but couldn't complain about the star, so he waited. When it came time for him to throw a punch, he nailed Mix sending him to the floor.

Parry expected to hear, "You're fired!" But Mix just picked himself up and went back to work.

After that the two would take turns sucker punching eachother. They made a lot of movies together.

But if you ever see an old Tom Mix movie and the punch looks real, it probably is, and it's probably Parry getting nailed.

Wasn't Cagney also a Black Belt in Judo? A real Kodokan BB? I might have him mixed up... But I think he was... Ok I looked it up and he was! So Cagney had a penchant for the fighting arts apparently.

[billeau2]

IMHO The problem with Hollywood boxing films is their inability to find a dramatic arc that doesn't end with the 'big fight.'

The trope comes in many flavors, the underdog fighting for redemption, the cross fighter trying to stay clean and standing up to the mob, the finished fighter facing reality, Etc.

Raging Bull is the only boxing film that doesn't complete its dramatic arc with the 'big fight' cliché.

Scorsese stated that he wasn't looking for reality in the fight sequences but instead was trying to convey how the brutality of each fight was breaking the man down.

I have not been able to find a second boxing film that figured out how to convey a boxing story without using the overused 'big fight' trope at some point in the film.

IMO Other than Rocky (I) the entire Rocky/Creed series should be run through a ban saw.

P.S. Not sure why we want to see a realistic representation of a prize fight when we can watch one live (on TV).

If you are talking about a gladiatoral fight to the death, with sword and shield, then I would understand why we need movie magic to recreate it. But why make a big deal out of recreating something that actually exists?

I see your point Pep. I am also amazed at what people consider good choreography for fights. People like martial arts, fights and other such events to conform to what they think they should look like. But I always hold out hope that people can be educated a bit about conflict. My brain dead guilty pleasure was the new Jack Reacher series... I am ashamed of myself! But what annoyed me was people saying the last fight scene in the series to date was "great." Now the actors ****** each other up (allegedlly) but it was horrible choreography.

[Willie Pep 229]

Wasn't Cagney also a Black Belt in Judo? A real Kodokan BB? I might have him mixed up... But I think he was... Ok I looked it up and he was! So Cagney had a penchant for the fighting arts apparently.

That interesting. Didn't think the Asian martial arts became popular in America until the 1960s.

I wonder if he was preparing for another film or actually competing?

[billeau2]

That interesting. Didn't think the Asian martial arts became popular in America until the 1960s.

I wonder if he was preparing for another film or actually competing?

The real interesting thing is he was legit Kodokan Judo was at that time exemplory. Judo was around since the second world war when they allowed Japan to rebuild the Kodokan training hall. The founder of Judo Kano was to some a Western apologist and Judo was based on a melding of Japanese and Western ways. It took out a lot of dangerous techniques from the Bujitsu (combat arts) of Ju Jutsu. Kano pounced on these systems when they had been sufficiently weakened: japan is a cou ntry that kills its best then enshrines them and their ethos to be worshipped by the masses... Like Feudal Japan itself there are a few major corporations in Japan that run everything business related, while the empror is just there to make sure the country is unified.

Samurai families were sent to die in the South pacific to get rid of the Samurai and thus enable Japan to stay unified, and Kano pounced on these weakened systems to assert the primacy of Judo. James could have learned the art as a serviceman if he was enlisted? But it would have been taught for sure.

As far as "competing" believe it, or not the story is a rabbit hole in itself. Kodokan Judo, while the standard, was pretty basic: You went and found a partner in the hall and threw each other around. A gifted teacher may have taken a student, like Cagney under his wing... Most Judo competitions since have weakened the combat applications for the art. Taking out stuff that was really good... Think like the alphabet groups in boxing, butinstead of declaring weak champs, taking out techniques and making emerging competitions bereft of all functionality.

[Anomalocaris]

IMHO The problem with Hollywood boxing films is their inability to find a dramatic arc that doesn't end with the 'big fight.'

The trope comes in many flavors, the underdog fighting for redemption, the cross fighter trying to stay clean and standing up to the mob, the finished fighter facing reality, Etc.

Raging Bull is the only boxing film that doesn't complete its dramatic arc with the 'big fight' cliché.

Scorsese stated that he wasn't looking for reality in the fight sequences but instead was trying to convey how the brutality of each fight was breaking the man down.

I have not been able to find a second boxing film that figured out how to convey a boxing story without using the overused 'big fight' trope at some point in the film.

IMO Other than the original Rocky (I) the entire Rocky/Creed series should be run through a ban saw.

P.S. Not sure why we want to see a realistic representation of a prize fight when we can watch one live (on TV).

If we were talking about a gladiatoral fight to the death, with sword and shield, then I would understand why we need movie magic to recreate it. But why make a big deal out of recreating something that actually exists?

After the original the Rocky films became more and more ridiculous.

How old was he in the last film he fought in?

107?

He would have been carried out in a coffin in the first round of the second Creed match.

As for Drago - words fail me.

[max baer]

After the original the Rocky films became more and more ridiculous.

How old was he in the last film he fought in?

107?

He would have been carried out in a coffin in the first round of the second Creed match.

As for Drago - words fail me.

Great entertainment though. Great soundtrack! Inspired many a kid to get fit and go out for a run rather than another sticky bun!

[Anomalocaris]

Great entertainment though. Great soundtrack! Inspired many a kid to get fit and go out for a run rather than another sticky bun!

Got no bloody chocolate and it's eggsactly the day for it!

[adamjones]

lamotta.jpg
When I watched Raging Bull around 2001 I couldn't stop laughing with diniro and pesci.
Such a great film. He goes "i don't think he likes me " and pesci goes "so what, no one likes you, you oughta be used to that by now."
Or when he accuses his rival of shagging his wife and his paranoia notes ai. I thought it was so funny that film.
But where do you guys rank Lamotta? Had been managed right could he have being an ATG?
Was he over rated? What did the mob do to his chances?

Jake LaMotta was a tough, relentless fighter, but his career was impacted by his emotional instability and the mob's interference, particularly with the Billy Fox fight. Had he been managed better, he likely could have achieved greater success and possibly reached ATG status. While his toughness and career were impressive, his flaws, both in the ring and outside of it, prevented him from being among the absolute best. His legacy is a mix of potential unfulfilled and the mark the mob left on his career, but he remains a memorable figure in boxing history.