Fury's retirements and the lineal championship

[Willie Pep 229]

Yes. The semantics are irrelevant. Primarily because of how the term applies, at least historically. Thai boxing among other combative sports hybrids tells us the same story: what makes it so compelling is how while the dynamics are the same, the weight class is different. It shows us the same historical structure with a unique twist because the Thai "champion Lineal champ, is the champ at middle weight. Yet everything else is the same as the lineal mechanism.

The way it sticks is a structure that repeats historically because it is such a part of human nature. When someone claims to be the biggest, baddest, toughest in the land, a challenger will emerge. Everyone recognizes that if the challenger wins, he becomes the biggest, baddest, toughest, in the land!

Another historical tidbit. When Figg was promoting boxing, the original intent was to give young aggressive men a way to settle disputes physically with no death, or permanent disfigurements. Gradually though, as Marg points out so well, regarding the whole ancient notion of fighting for glory and how it split off of military and ritual fighting for that which was greater than us ( a transcendent God), boxing became a way to attain personal currency. Exhibitions originally allowed men to challenge boxers on a stage. This was done in Brazil as well. Brazil has a robust history of combatives, mostly wrestling styles, including English wrestling styles and eventually Japanese imports... In Brazil matches could be "work (staged)," or a challenge match. The prize in all cases was bragging rights.

Boxing just was an outgrowth of this activity allowing fighters to come from farther places. And the lineal was a way for a line of the best to develop and proudly declare itself as a pedigree.

I saw a martial art clip where one fighter (I believe an American) laid out his opponent with a viscous kick. The referee said, "You're not suspose to do that," and DQed the American.

(The kick was legal, just too hard.)

I don't know what I was watching but I wonder if that is similar to how Frigg intented a fight should proceed.

[billeau2]

I saw a martial art clip where one fighter (I believe an American) laid out his opponent with a viscous kick. The referee said, "You're not suspose to do that," and DQed the American.

(The kick was legal, just too hard.)

I don't know what I was watching but I wonder if that is similar to how Frigg intented a fight should proceed.

If you look at a preponderance of combatives, the organization of rules that applied generally speaking you get matches that were considered exhibition. These were light contact, sparring, things like that. Then you had different rule sets according to the type of combat, so grapplers not allowed to hit, things like that... And finally you had no rules which could mean exactly as stated, or, some very dangerous techiques could be eliminated and otherwise combatants could use anything. In brazilian stuff the term "Vale Tudo" which many people mistake for a style is in fact a proclamation that the fight will be "anything goes."

Now... Things like Rough and Tumble, and other extreme combat scenarios are usually not thought of when two combatants decide to fight no rules. This is one of man y reasons why guys like me, have to explain to people that when you put gloves on, you are limited considerably if you train to kill and maim.

In Karate itself there are used to be a lot more contact in tournaments. Generally there was light contact, or "points" sparring, full contact to the body and either no contact, or light contact to the face.

For Figg actually it was an interesting time. Fencers and wrestlers had different types of contests, but using "mufflers" for punching was new. Wrestlers did "work" which was an exhibition or they fought a match... Figg had to navigate the whole process to find a way for people to punch each other. Initially for Figg the big push was to take fencing and quarter staff tecnique and transfer it to hitting.

Interesting fact: In Human history your older martial arts typically used weapons and integrated hand to hand, while your newer martial arts worked the opposite. So, any Philipino system came from tribes fighting with edged weapons and sticks... eventually incorporating striking and grappling... While Karate-do developed weapons work (Kobudo) from hand to hand... Aikido was based on movement principles, claimed these were from sword techniques, then reintegrated this sword work for conditioning the wrists and arms. The exception to this are very old wrestling systems (so called) like Sumo, the only indigenious japanese Martial Art, Mongolian wrestling, as opposed to Mongoloid wrestling and even Sua Jao (Older Chinese Wrestling).

So Figg thought of boxing as a mere extension of sword and quarter staff. A way to stop senseless violence, honor killings.

T

[kafkod]

Why don't we just say screw the term lineal title, and stick with lineal champion? I don't see how that can be argued. It's the man who beat the man, hence the lineal champion.

Light-bulb-moment-200x200.jpg


Hey, you got it at last!

And the difference is more than mere semantics. Man-who-beat-the-man lineages actually exist, as objective, proven, verifiable history. But no lineal title has existed since Ring Magazine retired their lineal championship belts in the 1990s. So the only objective way to start a new lineage after a break in the man-who-beat-the-man chain is to insist hat every new lineage must start with an undisputed champion, like Usyk.

[JAB5239]

Light-bulb-moment-200x200.jpg


Hey, you got it at last!

And the difference is more than mere semantics. Man-who-beat-the-man lineages actually exist, as objective, proven, verifiable history. But no lineal title has existed since Ring Magazine retired their lineal championship belts in the 1990s. So the only objective way to start a new lineage after a break in the man-who-beat-the-man chain is to insist hat every new lineage must start with an undisputed champion, like Usyk.

That's not true. If usyk does not hold all the belts and the number two contender does not hold a belt, and they fight.....the winner is the new lineal champion. As it is, Usyk won lineal from Fury. You don't have to be undisputed.

[kafkod]

That's not true. If usyk does not hold all the belts and the number two contender does not hold a belt, and they fight.....the winner is the new lineal champion. As it is, Usyk won lineal from Fury. You don't have to be undisputed.

What do you mean by won the lineal?

You have apparently accepted the obvious fact that there is no "lineal title", so what did Usyk win from Fury, apart from the WBC belt?

[kafkod]

That's not true. If usyk does not hold all the belts and the number two contender does not hold a belt, and they fight.....the winner is the new lineal champion. As it is, Usyk won lineal from Fury. You don't have to be undisputed.

Whose number 2 contender are you talking about there? As in .. who decides who the number 2 contender is?

[billeau2]

That's not true. If usyk does not hold all the belts and the number two contender does not hold a belt, and they fight.....the winner is the new lineal champion. As it is, Usyk won lineal from Fury. You don't have to be undisputed.

You do not understand... It upsets the silly brigade when the word lineal is used because Nat used the term... . We need something official like the WWMA title! Then we need to get people with money, grease some palms... Like Blinkie Palermo! create a belt, like Charlie Z did, then it becomes "official."

[billeau2]

Light-bulb-moment-200x200.jpg


Hey, you got it at last!

And the difference is more than mere semantics. Man-who-beat-the-man lineages actually exist, as objective, proven, verifiable history. But no lineal title has existed since Ring Magazine retired their lineal championship belts in the 1990s. So the only objective way to start a new lineage after a break in the man-who-beat-the-man chain is to insist hat every new lineage must start with an undisputed champion, like Usyk.

It has to be undisputed now?!

[JAB5239]

Whose number 2 contender are you talking about there? As in .. who decides who the number 2 contender is?

You can use the Ring, you can use the TNBR. They're both not taking a dime to do their rankings and are usually on the same page when a contender rises that high. Both right now have Dubois right after usyk. If neither held this title and fought it would be for the vacant lineal championship. Boxrec has DD behind usyk as well.

The WBO has Parker number one behind Dubois. The WBA has Kubrat Pulev as their regular champion behind Usyk. The IBF has number one vacant and Chisora number two. The WBC has Kabayel behind Usyk. I mean come on man, use your common sense. The ABC orgs are a mess!!

[JAB5239]

It has to be undisputed now?!

Exactly. Like the trinket making orgs mean anything.