How about a list of draws from fighters?

[Dr Z]

If you have primary sources that Jack Johnson fought;
Ring Announcer Billy Jordan. LOL
John Nelson.
Jack Twin Sullivan.
And that he drew with Joe Butler in1906.
A Jim Johnson in 1906.
Then produce them,because the onus is on you to prove your claims.

FYI Joe Butler did not fight between October 27th 1905 until May10th 1909!
Joe Butler: The Forgotten Philadelphia Legend of 1890s Boxing


So put your money where your mouth is,because it's **** or get off the pot time!



Do I want to learn? Yes indeed,I'm always ready to learn ,so educate me, produce your proof these fights happened.
The ball is now firmly in your court,let us see what you do with it

These sources are yours, and I will say are antiquated. CBZ encyclopedia was written in the 90's and Pollack, though well researched, only had access to less than 20% of the material! On research he is no Lucket Davis.

I can produce sources, but first you must tell the board of your past and present poster names on ESB and on this forum. Do you want to learn or not?

But first you must ponder what if these fights happened? I told you the cost. Honesty costs you nothing. Can you grant my simple request or not?

[Bundana]

Just as important in my opinion. The biggest difference is you have to put in more leg work to find out what really happened in any particular fight with this outcome. Can't really detract from a fighter because of the rules of the era.

Agree!

Sometimes a NWS decision could actually give you a clearer idea of what went on in a fight, than the official decision. One such fight that comes to mind is of course the 2nd Greb vs Tunney fight - which on the record of both men is listed as an official points win for Tunney. However, among reporters who witnessed the fight, the vast majority thought Greb should have been given the verdict. So I guess Greb was simply unlucky, that this wasn't a ND fight!

[JAB5239]

Agree!

Sometimes a NWS decision could actually give you a clearer idea of what went on in a fight, than the official decision. One such fight that comes to mind is of course the 2nd Greb vs Tunney fight - which on the record of both men is listed as an official points win for Tunney. However, among reporters who witnessed the fight, the vast majority thought Greb should have been given the verdict. So I guess Greb was simply unlucky, that this wasn't a ND fight!

Great point! I remember years ago I just went by boxrec. It wasn't until I started reading old newspaper accounts that I elevated both Langford and Greb. I believed For the longest time Greb only beat Tunney in their first meeting. Now I believe they're 2-2-1 with all the fights being close besides the first and last. Not sure how boxrec comes to decisions on wins and losses, but they're not always correct.

[JAB5239]

These sources are yours, and I will say are antiquated. CBZ encyclopedia was written in the 90's and Pollack, though well researched, only had access to less than 20% of the material! On research he is no Lucket Davis.

I can produce sources, but first you must tell the board of your past and present poster names on ESB and on this forum. Do you want to learn or not?

But first you must ponder what if these fights happened? I told you the cost. Honesty costs you nothing. Can you grant my simple request or not?

It's obvious you have no sources and only want to troll. You posted this yesterday begging for Bronsons attention. You've been outed in your own thread. Kudos to Bronson for not taking the bait because the rest of us are having a productive discussion. Very petty and immature Z.

[Bronson66]

It's obvious you have no sources and only want to troll. You posted this yesterday begging for Bronsons attention. You've been outed in your own thread. Kudos to Bronson for not taking the bait because the rest of us are having a productive discussion. Very petty and immature Z.

All we are asking is for him to provide a primary source for his claims,let us see if he responds to our request ,it would be a first.
Bundana has led this into a different, more productive direction.

[Marchegiano]

I'm not sure, what you mean by this? Are you saying, that ND fights should be disregarded and not counted, when we discuss boxing records?

No bud, I was confessing I do not know why some newspaper results are not considered official by many including boxrec. While other "official" fights are sourced from a newspaper.

Sticking with boxrec. They have their win loss numbers but when you go count the wins and losses those numbers are minus the paper decisions but when you source a fight that is on a record it may go back to a paper.

so, I dunno how that is properly navigated, I avoided it entirely.

[Willie Pep 229]

Great point! I remember years ago I just went by boxrec. It wasn't until I started reading old newspaper accounts that I elevated both Langford and Greb. I believed For the longest time Greb only beat Tunney in their first meeting. Now I believe they're 2-2-1 with all the fights being close besides the first and last. Not sure how boxrec comes to decisions on wins and losses, but they're not always correct.

Many of those pro Greb newspapers are out of Pittsburgh and Cleveland.

This is one of the problems with NWS decisions and possibly why Boxrec chose to give Tunney the nod.

[JAB5239]

All we are asking is for him to provide a primary source for his claims,let us see if he responds to our request ,it would be a first.
Bundana has led this into a different, more productive direction.

Agreed. Bundana is a top poster here for sure.

[JAB5239]

Many of those pro Greb newspapers are out of Pittsburgh and Cleveland.

This is one of the problems with NWS decisions and possibly why Boxrec chose to give Tunney the nod.

There are newspaper accounts from Philadelphia and New York as well. It seems, and I could be wrong as I dint know about the time enough to speak with authority, that the major newspapers seemed to be predominantly on the east coast.

I believe the IBRO has them at 2-2-1 as well. I'd imagine they, as a team, would have scoured newspaper accounts of the fight.

[JAB5239]

Mulddon Says Greb Outpointed Tunney; Declares that Pittsburgh boxer should have recieved decision after title bout. CALLS THE VERDICT UNJUST. Head of Athletic Commision States that contest is closed incident, however. Greb seeks return match and expresses confidence in ability to regain Light-Heavyweight crown if given chance.

This is from the New York times.Times. Kind of shows that what we may think can be bias in the press works both ways.