How about a list of draws from fighters?

[Willie Pep 229]

Why can't anyone answer a very simple question: When we talk about a boxer's record, should we disregard NWS fights - or should we at least say, that they don't "count" as much as official decision bouts? Or are they just as important?

Just as important . . . so long as there is something that can be called a 'consensus.'

Here's what I think is another problem. When we see a NWS decision we know it was fought as a No Decision go.

But we don't know under what circumstances, say a third round KO, was fought under. Was it a NWS fight? Or were there PTS at stake; a side bet for a KO involved; were fighters quicker to quit, ECT.

Maybe it doesn't matter, it was a KO, but maybe the nuance did make a difference.

For the early fighters there are too many NWS fights on Boxrec not to include them in any analysis.

A must in.

[Bundana]

Sorry B, I thought I had answered your question,at least as far as my opinion goes they are real fights,but in many cases if you want to find a definitive winner, you need to do a lot of looking in old newspapers ,and a lot of comparing of the reports .

Yes, that's exactly how the NWS "decisions" were arrived at... by examining available newspaper reports of the time, trying to find a clear majority opinion. And if a clear opinion couldn't be found either way - the fight was of course given the nws-draw tag.

The reason I'm asking this, is because you guys keep talking about Langford having only 38 draws - when BoxRec in fact lists 53 (when you count NWS fights as real fights)!

[JAB5239]

I don't think that. I think they were allowed to fight.

The "wrong" likely occurred when the decision was recorded.

There are circumstances were the nature of the event makes a half effort dangerous if not impossible.

Look at the NBA and the NFL. The NBA had to alter its draft protocol because late in the season it became temping for a losing team to dump games.

The NFL does not suffer with this problem because playing 'soft' in an NFL game it too dangerous.

I don't buy into the belief that black fighters were so much better that they could fight at half speed.

Too dangerous, likely not even possible.

I think you misinterpreted what I meant. What I'm saying is black fighters sometimes had to carry lesser fighters in order to get another pay day. Langford-Ketchel being an example. From what i read he did not go all out, in return he was supposed to get that middleweight title shot, but Ketchel died. Another example in a different era would be Jake LaMotta having to play bell with the mobility to get his title shot. In other instances fighters had to fight each other so often they didnt go all out as to not get hurt and ruin their next payday. I want to say this happened with Joe Jeannette and Langford, but I'd have to go back and look it up again. I would bet this happened with many black fighters. Their hands were tied. If they didn't play ball they didn't eat. I'll look more into it to get a more definitive answer.

[Willie Pep 229]

I think you misinterpreted what I meant. What I'm saying is black fighters sometimes had to carry lesser fighters in order to get another pay day. Langford-Ketchel being an example. From what i read he did not go all out, in return he was supposed to get that middleweight title shot, but Ketchel died. Another example in a different era would be Jake LaMotta having to play bell with the mobility to get his title shot. In other instances fighters had to fight each other so often they didnt go all out as to not get hurt and ruin their next payday. I want to say this happened with Joe Jeannette and Langford, but I'd have to go back and look it up again. I would bet this happened with many black fighters. Their hands were tied. If they didn't play ball they didn't eat. I'll look more into it to get a more definitive answer.

I don't have a problem in believing tired fighters agreed to 'dog a fight.' - I also believe that fighters took dives, but less often than legened and Hollywood has it. Often (LaMotta included) they got suspended anyway, even sometimes when they didn't deserve it, e.g. Graziano-Zale I.

I don't believe that Langford was so good that he carried his top white opponents.

Occasionally with lesser competition I can see it happening regardless of the races involved, but that he, and other black fighters, did this with top white fighters, e.g. Ketchel, I believe is another over-statement common to 'the color line' history.

P.S. Prize fighting is full of noise and Sam wasn't afraid to participate when it suited his cause. Remember, he (his manager) claimed to have KD JJ.

[JAB5239]

I don't have a problem in believing tired fighters agreed to 'dog a fight.' - I also believe that fighters took dives, but less often than legened and Hollywood has it. Often (LaMotta included) they got suspended anyway, even sometimes when they didn't deserve it, e.g. Graziano-Zale I.

I don't believe that Langford was so good that he carried his top white opponents.

Occasionally with lesser competition I can see it happening regardless of the races involved, but that he, and other black fighters, did this with top white fighters, e.g. Ketchel, I believe is another over-statement common to 'the color line' history.

P.S. Prize fighting is full of noise and Sam wasn't afraid to participate when it suited his cause. Remember, he (his manager) claimed to have KD JJ.

Langford most definitely carried Ketchel according to newspaper reports and the words of Nat Fleischer himself, who was a huge fan of Ketchel. I find it difficult to believe this didn't happen in many fights at that time.

[Willie Pep 229]

Langford most definitely carried Ketchel according to newspaper reports and the words of Nat Fleischer himself, who was a huge fan of Ketchel. I find it difficult to believe this didn't happen in many fights at that time.

Newspapers is interesting.

Nat Fleischer is a bias (almost useless) source when analyzing pioneer black fighters.

If you listen to Nat you'd think they could fly.

[JAB5239]

Newspapers is interesting.

Nat Fleischer is a bias (almost useless) source when analyzing pioneer black fighters.

If you listen to Nat you'd think they could fly.

Maybe so, but he was also a big fan of Ketchel and ranked him the best middleweight ever. That said, there are a ton of newspaper articles saying the same thing. I can't imagine they'd all be making it up.

If you want to find a lot of information and newspaper articles check out the Langford biography by Clay Moyle.

[JAB5239]

Why can't anyone answer a very simple question: When we talk about a boxer's record, should we disregard NWS fights - or should we at least say, that they don't "count" as much as official decision bouts? Or are they just as important?

Just as important in my opinion. The biggest difference is you have to put in more leg work to find out what really happened in any particular fight with this outcome. Can't really detract from a fighter because of the rules of the era.

[Bronson66]

Just as important in my opinion. The biggest difference is you have to put in more leg work to find out what really happened in any particular fight with this outcome. Can't really detract from a fighter because of the rules of the era.

So very true.

[Bronson66]

Maybe so, but he was also a big fan of Ketchel and ranked him the best middleweight ever. That said, there are a ton of newspaper articles saying the same thing. I can't imagine they'd all be making it up.

If you want to find a lot of information and newspaper articles check out the Langford biography by Clay Moyle.

Sam was angling for a title fight with Stanley, and kept his big artillery under wraps as you know J.