How about a list of draws from fighters?

[Willie Pep 229]

I came up with an idea.

I looked at George Dixon's draws, separating them between six rounds and below and 10 rounds and above.

I thought this might tell us something about the nature of the fights, the draws.

It didn't, my logic quickly fell flat on its face. Dixon had as many six and under draws as he had ten and above.

I gained no insight. Plus, there didn't even seem to be any difference between his early number of draws and later career.

I got zero insight from the effort.

P.S. If you are wondering about the 8 round draws I found. He only had one, so I threw it in with the above 10 group.

Maybe I'll try it again with Langford.

P.S.S. But I still think that six and under draws say something different than 10 and above draws. Just not sure what, yet.

[Dr Z]

I and others put you straight on Draws in Argentina previously,you claimed Monzon wasnt anything special because he had a series of them,being unaware that if there was no clear winner officials routinely gave draws .
If you want to dispute this we can easily scroll back and prove it! and your ignorance of the custom.

Now lets get to the subject!

This is what you claim.

1. John "Jack" Nelson - January 27, 1899
   • Result: Draw (5 rounds)
   • Notes: Early in his career, fought in Chicago.
2. Hank Griffin - October 27, 1902
   • Result: Draw (20 rounds)
   • Notes: A rematch with Griffin in Los Angeles ended in a draw.
3. Billy Jordan - July 17, 1903
   • Result: Draw (10 rounds)
   • Notes: Fought in Philadelphia.

1. Jack "Twin" Sullivan - November 27, 1905
   • Result: Draw (10 rounds)
   • Notes: A competitive bout in Denver, Colorado.
2. Joe Butler - October 8, 1906
   • Result: Draw (10 rounds)
   • Notes: Fought in Philadelphia.
3. Jim Johnson - December 10, 1906
   • Result: Draw (6 rounds)
   • Notes: In Gloucester, Massachusetts.
4. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien - May 8, 1909
   • Result: Draw (6 rounds)
   • Notes: An exhibition-style bout in Philadelphia against the middleweight star.
5. Jack Johnson (Battling Jim Johnson) - December 19, 1913
   • Result: Draw (10 rounds)
   • Notes: A controversial heavyweight title defense in Paris against another fighter named Johnson; some criticized it as lackluster

Most of these draw were vs. so-so fighters to put if kindly. Does a great fighter draw so often? I think Jack was lucky on some draws.Quote



1 .John Jack Nelson .Show us a primary source that supports your contention that Johnson drew with John Jack Nelson in1899, or any other time?
Neither Pollack,Box Rec or CBZ list this fight, nor is it in Unforgiveable Blackness, or Papa Jack.

Produce a primary source that proves it happened?

3.Billy Jordan? For your information,Jordan was a famous ring announcer.In fact he was the announcer for the Johnson v Jeffries fight!LOL

Jordan announcing Johnson at Reno1910

4.Jack Twin Sullivan never fought Johnson in1905 or any other time.

5.Joe Butler DID fight Johnson but NOT IN1903,IN1906 and Johnson ko'd him in3 rounds!

6.Jim Johnson there is no record of Jack Johnson fighting a Jim Johnson,again produce a primary source for this Jim Johnson fight?

7.Jack O Brien this was officially a 6 rounds no decision fight.You do know what NO DECISION means don't you?It means no official decision is given.

8.Jack Johnson and Battling JimJohnson went 10rds to a draw,the champion had broken his arm in the 3rd round.

PS When you set out to assassinate a fighters record its advisable to get your facts straight! Otherwise you just end up looking like a foolish ,agenda driven , hater! As you have here!

These sources are yours, and I will say are antiquated. CBZ encyclopedia was written in the 90's and Pollack, though well researched, only had access to less than 20% of the material! On research he is no Lucket Davis.

I can produce sources, but first you must tell the board of your past and present poster names on ESB and on this forum. Do you want to learn or not?

[JAB5239]

These sources are yours, and I will say are antiquated. CBZ encyclopedia was written in the 90's and Pollack, though well researched, only had access to less than 20% of the material! On research he is no Lucket Davis.

I can produce sources, but first you must tell the board of your past and present poster names on ESB and on this forum. Do you want to learn or not?

See, this is BS. You say you want to talk boxing, but you don't, you want a personal fight to keep going and going. If you have sources just provide them. If you can't than stop trying to tear down another poster who is providing sources.

[JAB5239]

I came up with an idea.

I looked at George Dixon's draws, separating them between six rounds and below and 10 rounds and above.

I thought this might tell us something about the nature of the fights, the draws.

It didn't, my logic quickly fell flat on its face. Dixon had as many six and under draws as he had ten and above.

I gained no insight. Plus, there didn't even seem to be any difference between his early number of draws and later career.

I got zero insight from the effort.

P.S. If you are wondering about the 8 round draws I found. He only had one, so I threw it in with the above 10 group.

Maybe I'll try it again with Langford.

P.S.S. But I still think that six and under draws say something different than 10 and above draws. Just not sure what, yet.

The effort is appreciated. I think this (draws) is more a sign of the timesand rules of that period. I don't know if it was applies more to black fighters who seemed to have their hands cuffed to a certain extent. Sometimes having to carry a fighter, sometimes have to fight the same guys over and over just to make a buck.

[mattdonnellon]

Quite a lot of draws back at the turn of the 20th century were a bit like no decisions affairs where if both men were still standing, a draw was awarded. An example is Maher's fights v McAuliffe and Hall, the consensus was Peter won both handily but as there was no stoppage a draw was declared.

[JAB5239]

Quite a lot of draws back at the turn of the 20th century were a bit like no decisions affairs where if both men were still standing, a draw was awarded. An example is Maher's fights v McAuliffe and Hall, the consensus was Peter won both handily but as there was no stoppage a draw was declared.

I think that's what most of us here surmised, and the evidence keeps piling up.

[Willie Pep 229]

" I don't know if it was applies more to black fighters who seemed to have their hands cuffed to a certain extent. Sometimes having to carry a fighter, sometimes have to fight the same guys over and over just to make a buck."


I think that's what most of us here surmised, and the evidence keeps piling up.

I don't think that. I think they were allowed to fight.

The "wrong" likely occurred when the decision was recorded.

There are circumstances were the nature of the event makes a half effort dangerous if not impossible.

Look at the NBA and the NFL. The NBA had to alter its draft protocol because late in the season it became temping for a losing team to dump games.

The NFL does not suffer with this problem because playing 'soft' in an NFL game it too dangerous.

I don't buy into the belief that black fighters were so much better that they could fight at half speed.

Too dangerous, likely not even possible.

[Bronson66]

These sources are yours, and I will say are antiquated. CBZ encyclopedia was written in the 90's and Pollack, though well researched, only had access to less than 20% of the material! On research he is no Lucket Davis.

I can produce sources, but first you must tell the board of your past and present poster names on ESB and on this forum. Do you want to learn or not?

If you have primary sources that Jack Johnson fought;
Ring Announcer Billy Jordan. LOL
John Nelson.
Jack Twin Sullivan.
And that he drew with Joe Butler in1903.
A Jim Johnson in 1906.
Then produce them,because the onus is on you to prove your claims.

FYI Joe Butler did not fight between October 27th 1905 until May10th 1909!
Joe Butler: The Forgotten Philadelphia Legend of 1890s Boxing


So put your money where your mouth is,because it's **** or get off the pot time!
For the record my sources are;
Jack Johnson The Rise by Adam Pollack.
Jack Johnson The Reign By Adam Pollack.
Jack Johnson Black Champion by Finis Farr.
Unforgivable Blackness by Geoffrey C Ward.
Papa Jack by Randy Roberts.
Jack Johnson In The Ring And Out by Jack Johnson.
Box Rec.
Cyberzone.
By your own admission you have never read Pollack's books, so I'm wondering how you know what percentage of information he has managed to research? Can you now explain how you arrived at the figure of "less than 20% of the material"?
That should be an education all on it's own!
Where do you get the idea that some draws on the record of the old timers detracts from their greatness?
Langford has 38 draws listed.
Jeannette 8
McVey10
TomSharkey7
Jeff Clark 14
Young Peter Jackson28
Choynski 6


Do I want to learn? Yes indeed,I'm always ready to learn ,so educate me, produce your proof these fights happened.
The ball is now firmly in your court,let us see what you do with it

[Bundana]

Why can't anyone answer a very simple question: When we talk about a boxer's record, should we disregard NWS fights - or should we at least say, that they don't "count" as much as official decision bouts? Or are they just as important?

[Bronson66]

Why can't anyone answer a very simple question: When we talk about a boxer's record, should we disregard NWS fights - or should we at least say, that they don't "count" as much as official decision bouts? Or are they just as important?

Sorry B, I thought I had answered your question,at least as far as my opinion goes they are real fights,but in many cases if you want to find a definitive winner, you need to do a lot of looking in old newspapers ,and a lot of comparing of the reports .