Can USA boxing upper weight boxing be fixed?

[Marchegiano]

Okay i'll bit it hard then




Eh, tbh, it does seem like all that happened is the bar got lowered the second the undisputed title left American hands.

You know the only non-American HW champion to ever defend the undisputed status is Primo?

Lennox didn't need to defend undisputed because a handful of excuses the Brits love and Americans never press youse over. Like as if Mike and Evander delt with different bodies or promoters.

k2 had the but we brothers excuse which I guess rides through times when Vitali isn't even active. Don't need undisputed let alone a defense and also just for added fluff let's go ahead and revive Ring's failed 70s attempt at controlling championship narrative and add a new element to it that focuses on our ratings for a title we claim existed before ratings

Wilder, Fury, and Joshua all enjoyed fandoms who would argue their case rather than condemning them for putting money before titles.

Usyk repeats Evander, kind of, and all of a sudden we're acting like a return to glory. Nevermind the fact that Holy fought undisputed more, or that he faced more top tens, or that he defended undisputed, or the fact that he dealt with Don King when King had power, or the fact that Holy took pay cuts for glory. Usyk = Holy, might even be better depending on your eye test or how much you think a fat irish means in the 2020s even though the 90s went through them like they candy.




I mean really, maybe, maybe ain't no American dominance .... Maybe there is no ****ing dominance at all because these kids can't bring on what their idols were, period, planet wide?





Why do all y'all put that on us? We had a champion for a while too, and like everyone else he was and is shy of Holy who is just the most recent, Holy stands out against the kids, against Charles, Frazier, Ali, Holy's just one of the guys, fits in. Where TF is this Euro Holy? Y'all got an asian Holyfield to show me? African? Oh ... ... ... Holyfield is still the last dominant champion with no bull**** excuses required to explain his dominance? Okay then, it isn't American dominance that went away, it is dominance, and that is probably more due to the ****ty fanbases who come out of the woodwork to justify their fighter's negotiation tactic in social media than any trite xenophobic bull****.

[ShoulderRoll]

Good points Marchegiano.

Many times I get accused of being American-centric, but it’s more accurate to say that I’m used to the higher standards the heavyweight division used to have when Americans were dominant. The bar has definitely been lowered.

Since other countries are winning now they are excited to be on top, and they resent anyone killing their buzz by suggesting that they might not quite measure up in some ways. But the criticism isn’t coming from xenophobia. It is just an attempt to uphold standards created over 100 years of running the heavyweight division.

[Mr Mitts]

My opinion: there may be many upward trends that breathe hope momentarily back into boxing fans, but the overall trend will continue downward. It has to be, because the world has spoken, and the world knows what it wants. They don't want American football and boxing is so-so.

[Willie Pep 229]

My opinion: there may be many upward trends that breathe hope momentarily back into boxing fans, but the overall trend will continue downward. It has to be, because the world has spoken, and the world knows what it wants. They don't want American football and boxing is so-so.

I think American Football is doing better than in Europe than you suggest. Especially in Germany.

American football's growth anywhere, is going to be a slow-go because it is an equipment heavy sport; has a difficult learning curve; and is expensive to run.

Soccer has the blessing of needing little more than a ball and grass; can be played at any level, from 6 year old girls to top athletes; and was spread world-wide by the European colonialism.

American Football will eventually spread across Europe just as basketball is currently. It is a game perfectly designed/structured to create drama.

Drama always sells.

It will catch on. But it will be slow as the secondary school schools will resist the high expense.

[Mr Mitts]

Another reason boxing will not have another Golden age or even a silver or bronze, is that the heavyweight champ is no longer thought of as the toughest man in the world--(a former sobriquet for those gentlemen)--and she ain't even close. The toughest guy in the world is some or other MMA HW champion-- and ain't even close.

If allowed, people would rather watch something that is closer to an actual fight. MMA is miles closer.

You used to watch pigs races, 'cause there was nothing else to do. But now they have horse races. Pig races ain't coming back. I liked pig racing better, personally, but she ain't coming back. Nah. Pig racing is going the way of fencing. Just something people used to like.

[Anomalocaris]

I judge fighters by their achievements not their country of origin.

As a Brit I remember the horrendous jingoism of the US boxing press - especially about Lennox.

Times have changed thank goodness.

[Mr Mitts]

I think American Football is doing better than in Europe than you suggest. Especially in Germany.

American football's growth anywhere, is going to be a slow-go because it is an equipment heavy sport; has a difficult learning curve; and is expensive to run.

Soccer has the blessing of needing little more than a ball and grass; can be played at any level, from 6 year old girls to top athletes; and was spread world-wide by the European colonialism.

American Football will eventually spread across Europe just as basketball is currently. It is a game perfectly designed/structured to create drama.

Drama always sells.

It will catch on. But it will be slow as the secondary school schools will resist the high expense.

Lots of good points. I knew it was played in Canada, I was unsure of anyplace else. I obviously should have looked. So good on you. Maybe football can squeeze into some other markets and stay. The point is still valid though. The popularity of any sport waxes and wanes and sometimes wanes effectively out of existence. I doubt boxing will ever wane that far. But maybe it is just because old farts like us aren't dead yet.

And US football is almost perfectly designed but not quite. That kneeling down with the ball to let the clock run out in the last 2 minutes is a disgrace. Rules for the last 2 or even 3 minutes have to be different. Only occasionally are the last 2 minutes exciting now. I want those kneelers forced to make yardage or give up possession of the ball. They are ahead or they would not be kneeling. The team behind has the advantage of playing by normal rules. There goes kneeling. Zot!

[DeeMoney]

Lots of good points. I knew it was played in Canada, I was unsure of anyplace else. I obviously should have looked. So good on you. Maybe football can squeeze into some other markets and stay. The point is still valid though. The popularity of any sport waxes and wanes and sometimes wanes effectively out of existence. I doubt boxing will ever wane that far. But maybe it is just because old farts like us aren't dead yet.

And US football is almost perfectly designed but not quite. That kneeling down with the ball to let the clock run out in the last 2 minutes is a disgrace. Rules for the last 2 or even 3 minutes have to be different. Only occasionally are the last 2 minutes exciting now. I want those kneelers forced to make yardage or give up possession of the ball. They are ahead or they would not be kneeling. The team behind has the advantage of playing by normal rules. There goes kneeling. Zot!

There are stall tactics in any game that is dictated by a clock. Basketball teams with a lead will just hold the ball and the defense has no other recourse but to intentionally foul them (which is far worse than the kneel down). Boxers with a big lead will just stick and run in the 12th round to prevent getting KO'd, and I've seen soccer teams go into stalls with big leads and make no attempt to do anything other than run the clock.

Nature of the beast.

[Anomalocaris]

There are stall tactics in any game that is dictated by a clock. Basketball teams with a lead will just hold the ball and the defense has no other recourse but to intentionally foul them (which is far worse than the kneel down). Boxers with a big lead will just stick and run in the 12th round to prevent getting KO'd, and I've seen soccer teams go into stalls with big leads and make no attempt to do anything other than run the clock.

Nature of the beast.

It is funny, I know next to nothing about US football or basketball yet I am a huge fan of cricket, snooker and darts, sports almost no American has even heard of!

[Marchegiano]

Good points Marchegiano.

Many times I get accused of being American-centric, but it’s more accurate to say that I’m used to the higher standards the heavyweight division used to have when Americans were dominant. The bar has definitely been lowered.

Since other countries are winning now they are excited to be on top, and they resent anyone killing their buzz by suggesting that they might not quite measure up in some ways. But the criticism isn’t coming from xenophobia. It is just an attempt to uphold standards created over 100 years of running the heavyweight division.

I am literally just coming off of reading this garbage:

It can be argued that there was a few days he was undisputed. Between the time of Vitali announcing his retirement and Stiverne winning the vacant belt, now one else was claiming to be champ. Thus, undisputed.

Gee I wonder why Wlad never felt any need to be undisputed.

It's a wonder why Wlad never had to do anything but fight mandos to be given lineal

One wonders why, despite Wlad's career overlapping with legacy names he never actually fought one, and still gets rated like he had a resume

Oh no, four belts makes it hard to go undisputed, good thing Wlad ushered in the WBO ain't it?

I could on, on Wlad and the k2 ****, but honestly, Lennox needs to get some

Look at all these ****ing belts! You bitches, the same exact posters, who cry about all these ****ing belts never give Lennox any **** for being a conniving ***** and instead present to me Lennox Lewis like as if he was a great.

Gee I wonder why Lennox was an amateur with Mike and Evander but waited until after Tyson was a ****ing champion to debut and then waited until after he's a shell to cash out

Oh the great Lennox Lewis who touched Undisputed off the backs of shop worn men and then sold it along with the idea of the WBA Regular belt.

The great Lennox Lewis who dominated the sport so much he had to rematch his losses, because, as we all know, boxing stopped and ratings became stagnant just for Lennox. Gee I wonder where these kids got their love for contractual rematches should only one party lose.



That's our ****ing history boys. You can say America isn't dominating but really what it is, is everyone else accepts excuses for their fighters.


Wlad was never lineal, he was just the single decent in an ocean of fat HWs. He was not undisputed. He did not gather belts. He's a guy who struggled on the B-side of the division with the B-side belt and ratings board while everyone else was watching the tail end of Tyson-Holy-Lewis who then benefitted from the retiring valent, a brother holding a valuable belt, and bodies throwing titles at him because he was the only HW who looked good on a poster.

No resume to speak of. You can tell me he gathered the belts but the ones he did own came to him and sanctioned one of his mandos. Wlad never took a vol his entire career, the belts he gathered he won off mandos of other belts.



Why do we have four belts, why do we have second tier belts in those four, why does everyone need a rematch clause, why do fighter negotiate themselves out of undisputed, and how come the bodies won't get out of the way for undisputed to be defended? Because you ****ers praise Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko like they are some how equal to Louis, Ali, Dempsey, Holyfield, Charles, etc.




Charles got 4 undisputed defenses. Usyk has none. If I made a Charles vs Usyk thread we'd have a debate where there should be none. Only one man proved his dominance on multiple occasions, the other requires narrative excuses to make him equal to his former.





MEANWHILE



If I present the idea that globalization in boxing happened in our lifetime and historical boxing need to be recategorized so that eras have greater similarities I get told I'm an ******* just because that means recognizing Dempsey, Johnson, and Greb as "world" champions before the globalization of boxing, or stripping them of the "world" part of their champion status.



Let's not act like boxing was different when Dempsey was champion of American and European whites

Let's not act like boxing was different when Ali is champion of the free world, no racial bars anymore.

Let's not dare act like Usyk is champion over a field that no longer bars USSR states.



The sport globalized and dominance became difficult ... ... ... ... uh ... like one would guess, but, if a nation, a culture, or a place is to be blamed for the difficulties globalization brought boxing it is Europe and the European love of lowering the bar to pretend your current champion is in the same league as our former champions.








In short, you ******* did this to yourselves. You being rhetorical, I don't mean anyone specifically and certainly not Shoulder, who I've known a long time and can safely say the only level of guilt he has in this is going along so he can communicate rather than argue all the time.


I too pretend Wlad was lineal. That way i don't have to be stuck in Wlad-lineal convos all the time, but the fact is, that **** did nothing for his status and when you guys act like he did it's really disrespectful to guys like Walcott who had a hard path and still found a way to be the one and only champion.