Tunney & The Absence Of Black Fighters On His Resume.

[JAB5239]

By today's values yes.

To them, no! It was complicated and you refuse to acknowledge that reality.

They were growing socially, and Wills' unjust denial of a title shot was part of the growing social awareness that was rising in the 1920s, e.g. The Harlem Renaissance.

The racial history of the HW Championship moves from Johnson to Wills to Louis.

They needed time.

Wills' denial was a necessary wrong that opened the door for activists (within the boxing/sport community,) to later champion Louis' rise to the top; to ensure they wouldn't repeat the same wrong.

They saw their wrong and moved to correct it. But first they had to learn they were wrong. Enter the Wills denial of a title shot.

It was complicated and to just wave a moral judgement over these men, from our current POV, is a historical injustice. It proved to be a decade long debate on racial equality.

P.S. If you insist on a simple, absolute wrong, an 'scape goat' if you will, I suggest you look at Jack Johnson. He is the acorn that led to Wills' denial of a title shot.

He was only the beginning of the "problem" but he sure didn't help matters much.

I'd bet my bottom chip that if JJ never existed Wills would have fought Dempsey for the title.

By any standards my friend. The fight was being called for, for years. There was a ballot on who the public wanted Dempsey to fight next and Wills 133,000 votes compared to second place at like 6000 votes. The fight should have been made, and would have made money. They wanted a venue to hold 150,000 people at one point. I don't think Dempsey was afraid, but the burden of them not fighting falls on him because his team was. And you may very well be right about JJ. But that solidifies my point his team was afraid. If they though he would win there is no reason not to get the fight done.

[Willie Pep 229]

By any standards my friend. The fight was being called for, for years. There was a ballot on who the public wanted Dempsey to fight next and Wills 133,000 votes compared to second place at like 6000 votes. The fight should have been made, and would have made money. They wanted a venue to hold 150,000 people at one point. I don't think Dempsey was afraid, but the burden of them not fighting falls on him because his team was. And you may very well be right about JJ. But that solidifies my point his team was afraid. If they though he would win there is no reason not to get the fight done.

No, sorry! That's is contrary to my entire point about historical study and POV (re: boldface)

The burden lies in many hands. All came up short one way or another.

[JAB5239]

No, sorry! That's is contrary to my entire point about historical study and POV (re: boldface)

The burden lies in many hands. All came up short one way or another.

I disagree. It can't be hidden behind nobody wanted it or there was no money in it. If one avenue didn't work there were others. Why put out an offer and say the fight is going to happen and then back out? Why fight lesser fighters when Wills is who the public wanted. The fault lies on Dempsey's team, ie Dempsey. He may not have been afraid to fight, but his handlers sure seemed to be. Same thing with Greb. I'm not going to change your mind, but you're not going to change mine either.

[Dr. Z]

Doesn't matter, he was still the most proven heavyweight of that era, and to be pat over time and again was an injustice.

Wills was the most proven? Or was it Greb? Or Dempsey?

Well Tunney beat Dempsey and Greb more than once and offer Willis a fight. Wills refused!

I'd say Tunney was the best man from 1923 -1928.

[JAB5239]

Wills was the most proven? Or was it Greb? Or Dempsey?

Well Tunney beat Dempsey and Greb more than once and offer Willis a fight. Wills refused!

I'd say Tunney was the best man from 1923 -1928.

Wills easily has a better heavyweight resume than Tunney, Greb, and I would argue a better resume than Dempsey.

[Willie Pep 229]

I disagree. It can't be hidden behind nobody wanted it or there was no money in it. If one avenue didn't work there were others. Why put out an offer and say the fight is going to happen and then back out? Why fight lesser fighters when Wills is who the public wanted. The fault lies on Dempsey's team, ie Dempsey. He may not have been afraid to fight, but his handlers sure seemed to be. Same thing with Greb. I'm not going to change your mind, but you're not going to change mine either.

I have argued this before.

I believe this was a Kearns v Rickard matter and they both used Wills.

Kearns used the promise of a Wills fight to keep Rickard off balance. Rickard kept flip-flopping on a possible Wills-Dempsey fight and so long as that possibility existed Rickard was stifled. That fit Kearns' agenda perfectly.

Tex Rickard was doing a 'Don King' on Kearns and was trying to (and after the disaster in Shelby would) steal Dempsey.

By keeping the Wills fight a vague possiblity Kearns was free to beat the bushes out west until he found Shelby Montana. Dempsey didn't fight for two solid years from July 1921 to July 1923.

People never stop to contemplate that fact. If Kearns was truly just trying to avoid Wills why didn't they (Kearns/Dempsey) take on another white fighter in New York or Philadelphia where the money and gate were certain? Instead Kearns ran off to Montana where the money wasn't certain but Rickard couldn't reach. Explain to me why Kearns didn't fight another White fighter in the east?

Kearns' number one concern was not to fight in the New York area against anyone, lest Rickard be involved.

Kearns used Wills. Rickard used Wills. Farley and the NYSAC used Wills, and finally Fitzsimmons used Wills.

In the end Dempsey was the bait and Paddy Mullins had no choice but to keep snapping at it.

You want it to be simple so you can pass moral condemnation on Dempsey.

I will back off now because I can only repeat myself.

P.S. In regards to that newspaper poll you referenced please note that the second highest vote getter was Tommy Gibbons whom fought Dempsey in Montana. Both Wills AND Gibbons recieved over one hundred thousand votes each. So the highest "white" vote getter was the fight Dempsey took.

Greb wasn't popular enough with fans to excite the crowd. I said it before and say it again, Greb was feather-fisted and no one really wanted to see the HW Championshiop trade hands on a decision.

They wanted a fight not a boxing match, and by a large number chose Tommy Gibbons over Greb in the newspaper poll you keep mentioning.

[JAB5239]

I have argued this before.

I believe this was a Kearns v Rickard matter and they both used Wills.

Kearns used the promise of a Wills fight to keep Rickard off balance. Rickard kept flip-flopping on a possible Wills-Dempsey fight and so long as that possibility existed Rickard was stifled. That fit Kearns' agenda perfectly.

Tex Rickard was doing a 'Don King' on Kearns and was trying to (and after the disaster in Shelby would) steal Dempsey.

By keeping the Wills fight a vague possiblity Kearns was free to beat the bushes out west until he found Shelby Montana. Dempsey didn't fight for two solid years from July 1921 to July 1923.

People never stop to contemplate that fact. If Kearns was truly just trying to avoid Wills why didn't they (Kearns/Dempsey) take on another white fighter in New York or Philadelphia where the money and gate were certain? Instead Kearns ran off to Montana where the money wasn't certain but Rickard couldn't reach. Explain to me why Kearns didn't fight another White fighter in the east?

Kearns' number one concern was not to fight in the New York area against anyone, lest Rickard be involved.

Kearns used Wills. Rickard used Wills. Farley and the NYSAC used Wills, and finally Fitzsimmons used Wills.

In the end Dempsey was the bait and Paddy Mullins had no choice but to keep snapping at it.

You want it to be simple so you can pass moral condemnation on Dempsey.

I will back off now because I can only repeat myself.

P.S. In regards to that newspaper poll you referenced please note that the second highest vote getter was Tommy Gibbons whom fought Dempsey in Montana. Both Wills AND Gibbons recieved over one hundred thousand votes each. So the highest "white" vote getter was the fight Dempsey took.

Greb wasn't popular enough with fans to excite the crowd. I said it before and say it again, Greb was feather-fisted and no one really wanted to see the HW Championshiop trade hands on a decision.

They wanted a fight not a boxing match, and by a large number chose Tommy Gibbons over Greb in the newspaper poll you keep mentioning.

During Dempsey’s title reign, pressure mounted for him to defend it against Wills. In a poll conducted by more than 500 newspapers, Wills was picked as the boxer the public most wanted to see Dempsey fight. Wills got 131,073 votes. Tommy Gibbons finished second, trailing by about 6,000 votes. Then on May 1, 1924, Rickard announced that Dempsey and Wills would fight at Boyle’s Thirty Acres in Jersey City, New Jersey, on September 6. But then in a retraction, Rickard announced on July 5, stating that Dempsey would not fight Wills.

I misread. Will still won the poll as who the public most wanted to see. The demand was there, and it would have brought in a ton of money.

As far as Greb goes....one day Dempseys says "if there is demand", another day he says it will happen, and then zkearns come out with "we don't want nothing to do with that seven year itch" or something to that effect. Draw your own conclusions. But after word got out about their sparring matches I'm sure plenty wanted to see that fight more than guy Greb had already beaten.

[Willie Pep 229]

During Dempsey’s title reign, pressure mounted for him to defend it against Wills. In a poll conducted by more than 500 newspapers, Wills was picked as the boxer the public most wanted to see Dempsey fight. Wills got 131,073 votes. Tommy Gibbons finished second, trailing by about 6,000 votes. Then on May 1, 1924, Rickard announced that Dempsey and Wills would fight at Boyle’s Thirty Acres in Jersey City, New Jersey, on September 6. But then in a retraction, Rickard announced on July 5, stating that Dempsey would not fight Wills.

I misread. Will still won the poll as who the public most wanted to see. The demand was there, and it would have brought in a ton of money.

As far as Greb goes....one day Dempseys says "if there is demand", another day he says it will happen, and then zkearns come out with "we don't want nothing to do with that seven year itch" or something to that effect. Draw your own conclusions. But after word got out about their sparring matches I'm sure plenty wanted to see that fight more than guy Greb had already beaten.

Yes, see how popular Gibbons was? Certainly a fight 125,000 plus voted for and wanted to see.

So since you continue to point to that newspaper poll is it so terrible that Dempsey fought the second most popular challenger?

Didn't Greb spar with Dempsey in 1920 during the run up to the Miske fight? I don't see how that is relevant to the newspaper poll.

Dempsey fought no one in 1924 or 1925. So are we to say he was ducking everyone?

My belief is that Dempsey refused to fight for Kearns after Shelby and waited until 1926 when his ten year hand shake deal with Kearns was finished.

After the Firpo fight Tex Rickard paid Dempsey his end in cash directly. Not to Kearns as one would expect.

Kearns spent the next two years chasing after Dempsey for what he believed was his share of the Firpo fight. Dempsey claimed Kearns owed him money and refused to pay.

Earlier in July 1923, two days before the Gibbons fight in Shelby Kearns informed Dempsey that the Shelby promoters couldn't meet the final $100,000 of the $300,000 guarantee and that they should refuse to fight and return to New York.

Dempsey replied, "That's OK Doc, you go back to New York, I'm gonna stay and fight."

That's when Kearns knew he had lost Dempsey's trust.

Kearns kept playing the part of Dempsey's manager in 1924 and 1925 but he never had Dempsey's ear again.

Whatever Kearns might have said in 1924 means nothing. Dempsey didn't forgive Kearns for his legal hounding until years later, at a Newspaper Reporters' dinner (I believe in 1951).

Between that time and Dempsey's forgiveness Kearns and Dempsey did not communicate except through lawyers.

[Dr. Z]

Wills easily has a better heavyweight resume than Tunney, Greb, and I would argue a better resume than Dempsey.

I am saying Tunney was the best man fighting above 174 pounds from 1923-1928. Not Dempsey or Wills.

I would pick Tunney to beat Wills.



Give me Wills top 5 wins, with the ages and condition of his opponents. This could get interesting.

I have seen Wills on film and he disapoints.

Wills was the most proven? Or was it Greb? Or Dempsey?

Well Tunney beat Dempsey and Greb more than once and offer Willis a fight. Wills refused!

I'd say Tunney was the best man from 1923 -1928.

[QueensburyRules]

It was still Tex Rickard. Rickard didn't just do the 1924 rankings. He continued until his untimely death at the end if the decade.

Nat Fleischer didn't hold that level of prestige yet, he still needed Rickard's name.

- - Dumb and Dumber. Nat has to approve his work sorta like U minder keep U in BarneyBigBoys…