The fact that Ali was complaining about how hard Rocky was hitting…

[QueensburyRules]

Body shots were NOT allowed,and I know what sparring is ,I did enough of it.
An out of shape Ali would have simply murdered Rocky if he had put steam into his shots.Marciano told Murray Woroner ,"I never seen hands that fast".

- - It was an orchestrated sparring match and body shots were allowed for both whilst balding Rocky was wearing his Toupee that Ali targeted just like he did to Cosell. Ain't nobody to care what a featherduster like U has to say.

[Ivich]

- - It was an orchestrated sparring match and body shots were allowed for both whilst balding Rocky was wearing his Toupee that Ali targeted just like he did to Cosell. Ain't nobody to care what a featherduster like U has to say.

Body shots were NOT allowed, both men were supposed to pull all their punches.
By all accounts Marciano got carried away a couple of times but it was not in the script,if it had been Rocky would have not gotten carried away, he would have been carried out! Whether you accept the facts is up to you. why would I care?

[QueensburyRules]

Body shots were NOT allowed, both men were supposed to pull all their punches.
By all accounts Marciano got carried away a couple of times but it was not in the script,if it had been Rocky would have gotten carried away he would have been carried out! Whether you accept the facts is up to you. why would I care?

- - BarneyBigBoy time for U more likely.

[them_apples]

Body shots were NOT allowed, both men were supposed to pull all their punches.
By all accounts Marciano got carried away a couple of times but it was not in the script,if it had been Rocky would have gotten carried away he would have been carried out! Whether you accept the facts is up to you. why would I care?

Ali DID start firing lethal shots at Rocky. Its been documented the the match was heating up and there used to even clips of it.

everyone keeps saying he held back, yeah for a few rounds he did - but those 2 def didn’t just play around for 12 rounds.

Marcianos style confuses Ali and he even admits it, we can see why but also just through common sense if you analyze their styles.

my biggest pet peeve on this forum is the inability for anyone to realize how great Marciano was. He fooled his opponents and he’s fooling people today.

he never struggled with anyone, every fight is one sided and the difficulty is measured by who can survive the longest.

its because of Marcianos short reach and strong build coupled with a rock solid mentality that loved fighting. Old italians don’t exist anymore - so when people see the rock they think of some globalist anglo today but its really not the case at all.

when Marciano is inside on a heavyweight, his 67 inch reach crushes them and they feel helpless. So they are forced to back pedal to get range. The thing is, Marciano doesn’t box at range - he crouches and moves his head in a weird rythm and constantly seeks to “get close” as Archie put it. It exhausts fighters. This is why nobody “out boxed him” even the best boxers of all time like Charles.

the reason Alis style struggles with this is he can’t keep Rocky off, and same as w Frazier. So he takes breaks on the ropes. The window where Ali usually does his best work would be spent punching down at a crouching Marciano and likely missing a lot or just struggling in general because Ali really only throws 3 punches, a jab, straight right and a left hook.

Before anyone wants to obsess about weight, remember he was often outweighed by guys like Walcott and Charles - making him smaller. To do to charles while weighing less than him is ATG level victory.

[them_apples]

Ali never complained in real fights you mean. The Marciano affair was not a real fight and the fighters were just supposed to make it look good. I never saw anything I thought was a blow landing with any force. They may have done a few brief rehearsals.

Let's assume more. Let's suppose some of Ali's antics annoyed Rocky a fair bit. When he pulled the toupee off, that was the last straw. Marciano probably decided right there he was going to bust him a few good ones in the gut to give him a little respect. I think that would really be in line with the Rocky I know. But he would not persist.

I will break the personal intuitive probabilities down like this. This is pure guessing of course, no calculations were involved. About like this.

35%--using an opportunity to pay homage but make a valid point at the same time.

25%--It was pure homage.

25%--Ali was only selling the fight

15%--Marciano was simply hitting too hard and that is solely why Ali complained.

* * * *

One version on Youtube is weirdly lighted and too bright in spots, but is just right for examining the Rock's legs. His upper legs are unusually thick and muscular. Trunks always hid them. But here some of the shots are from below. I stopped the the machine for closer inspection. He has the legs of a weightlifter. No wonder he could punch. His upper body was never that impressive for show. He was bottom heavy--bad for sprinters but maybe good for boxers. I think Apples pointed that out.

I can't say for sure that a low center of gravity is beneficial to a boxer, though the assumption does seem reasonable on the surface. There also matters of stamina and other factors to consider. Lomachenko is P4P the shortest legged fighter I can think of. The Rock and Lomachenko are pretty good examples of success for low centers of gravity.

But Blacks dominate ATG lists and blacks in general have a higher center of gravity. So that question remains unsolved for me. Maybe it doesn't matter at all.

Something else. I never saw any welts, I just heard about them from Ali's mouth. Not a reliable source.

Also from a race theory

understand that Marciano is an old italian. Skin colour is not the only factor in regards to race.

old purebred Italians are no longer around.

the white people in boxing range from irish, slavic, german (aryan), french (celtic + latin), british (anglo+ latin roots)

so yeah blacks dominate boxing but there are no good white fighters anymore.

the 2 best fighters h2h are likely white. Greb and Marciano. On a per night bases these guys will beat just about everyone. A purebread Aryan and a purebred Italian w roots from Tuscany a place with a long history of gladitorial blood sports and a breeding ground for legionaires.

so its not as simple as black and white. Even Arabs when in a cold country start looking white due to them becoming pale, they share similar skin to Mediterraneans.

you are right though on average blacks tend to have longer limbs and smaller bodys (proportionally) giving them great speed and mobility just like old Italians on average had iron chins and natural strength.

but punching comes down to strictly leverage. A long limbed person only hits hard at the end of their shots. A short limbed person does as well, but the end of their punches happens to be at close range.

[Ivich]

Ali DID start firing lethal shots at Rocky. Its been documented the the match was heating up and there used to even clips of it.

everyone keeps saying he held back, yeah for a few rounds he did - but those 2 def didn�t just play around for 12 rounds.

Marcianos style confuses Ali and he even admits it, we can see why but also just through common sense if you analyze their styles.

my biggest pet peeve on this forum is the inability for anyone to realize how great Marciano was. He fooled his opponents and he�s fooling people today.

he never struggled with anyone, every fight is one sided and the difficulty is measured by who can survive the longest.

its because of Marcianos short reach and strong build coupled with a rock solid mentality that loved fighting. Old italians don�t exist anymore - so when people see the rock they think of some globalist anglo today but its really not the case at all.

when Marciano is inside on a heavyweight, his 67 inch reach crushes them and they feel helpless. So they are forced to back pedal to get range. The thing is, Marciano doesn�t box at range - he crouches and moves his head in a weird rythm and constantly seeks to �get close� as Archie put it. It exhausts fighters. This is why nobody �out boxed him� even the best boxers of all time like Charles.

the reason Alis style struggles with this is he can�t keep Rocky off, and same as w Frazier. So he takes breaks on the ropes. The window where Ali usually does his best work would be spent punching down at a crouching Marciano and likely missing a lot or just struggling in general because Ali really only throws 3 punches, a jab, straight right and a left hook.

Before anyone wants to obsess about weight, remember he was often outweighed by guys like Walcott and Charles - making him smaller. To do to charles while weighing less than him is ATG level victory.

Walcott 38 years old outboxed him for the majority of their fight.

"Marciano got to me by just sheer bull dogging ruggedness,and continuously grinding.I hit Rocky Marciano with some shots that would have taken the head off the average guy,but he kept piling on top of me and finally ,you understand when he got me in a position where he could hit me,then it wasn't long before I had to crumple,because I had no legs.Probably I hadn't had any legs for the last 4or 5 years."
Archie Moore taped interview 1970.

Rocky did to Moore what he did to Lastarza he wore him out.
One wonders if he had faced a younger Archie,a younger Walcott,a fresher Charles,if he would have been as successful?

Will you please provide a source for your statement that,"Ali did start firing lethal shots"

"Marciano never struggled with anyone?"
Marciano struggled with
Walcott 1
Lowry1
Charles1
Lastarza1
He was also behind at the half way stage in Lastarza 2.

Charles was slightly lighter for their first fight.
Moore was the same weight.
Mathews was lighter at179lbs.
Lastarza was slightly lighter.
****ell was a fat 205 lbs.
Louis was 213 3/4lbs and washed up.

Walcott and Charles 2 were the only title fights of Marciano's in which Marciano conceded muscle weight to a challenger.
The thing is Marciano COULDN'T box at range,he HAD to get inside,and he was able to do that against a 37 years old Louis,a 38 years old Walcott, a 41 years old Moore, and a twice around the block Charles?
Could he have done it against prime modern sized heavies,or even prime versions of those I named?

[Bundana]

Ali DID start firing lethal shots at Rocky. Its been documented the the match was heating up and there used to even clips of it.

everyone keeps saying he held back, yeah for a few rounds he did - but those 2 def didn�t just play around for 12 rounds.

Marcianos style confuses Ali and he even admits it, we can see why but also just through common sense if you analyze their styles.

my biggest pet peeve on this forum is the inability for anyone to realize how great Marciano was. He fooled his opponents and he�s fooling people today.

he never struggled with anyone, every fight is one sided and the difficulty is measured by who can survive the longest.

its because of Marcianos short reach and strong build coupled with a rock solid mentality that loved fighting. Old italians don�t exist anymore - so when people see the rock they think of some globalist anglo today but its really not the case at all.

when Marciano is inside on a heavyweight, his 67 inch reach crushes them and they feel helpless. So they are forced to back pedal to get range. The thing is, Marciano doesn�t box at range - he crouches and moves his head in a weird rythm and constantly seeks to �get close� as Archie put it. It exhausts fighters. This is why nobody �out boxed him� even the best boxers of all time like Charles.

the reason Alis style struggles with this is he can�t keep Rocky off, and same as w Frazier. So he takes breaks on the ropes. The window where Ali usually does his best work would be spent punching down at a crouching Marciano and likely missing a lot or just struggling in general because Ali really only throws 3 punches, a jab, straight right and a left hook.

Before anyone wants to obsess about weight, remember he was often outweighed by guys like Walcott and Charles - making him smaller. To do to charles while weighing less than him is ATG level victory.

Marciano didn't struggle with Ted Lowry in their first fight? A 5'10", 178 lbs journeyman, coming into the first fight with Marciano riding a 7-fight losing streak. Marciano didn't struggle with him - is that your testimony?

In the 1st fight with Charles, Rocky was the heavier by 2 lbs - and in the 2nd he was the lighter by 5�. Not exactly anything that indicates, how he would do against modern giants!

[Ivich]

Also from a race theory

understand that Marciano is an old italian. Skin colour is not the only factor in regards to race.

old purebred Italians are no longer around.

the white people in boxing range from irish, slavic, german (aryan), french (celtic + latin), british (anglo+ latin roots)

so yeah blacks dominate boxing but there are no good white fighters anymore.

the 2 best fighters h2h are likely white. Greb and Marciano. On a per night bases these guys will beat just about everyone. A purebread Aryan and a purebred Italian w roots from Tuscany a place with a long history of gladitorial blood sports and a breeding ground for legionaires.

so its not as simple as black and white. Even Arabs when in a cold country start looking white due to them becoming pale, they share similar skin to Mediterraneans.

you are right though on average blacks tend to have longer limbs and smaller bodys (proportionally) giving them great speed and mobility just like old Italians on average had iron chins and natural strength.

but punching comes down to strictly leverage. A long limbed person only hits hard at the end of their shots. A short limbed person does as well, but the end of their punches happens to be at close range.

I really don't wish to annoy you ,but most of this is racially stereotyped tosh.

Leverage plays a big part in punching power but several factors need to be considered,when the effects of punches is evaluated
Q Is the target stationary?
Q.Is the target moving away?
Q.Is the target hit flush?
imo Timing is the most important part of punching. Zhilei Zhang dropped Parker with a straight from the shoulder shot,no rotation from the hips .just a well timed straight punch .
Some guys are just blessed with heavy hands.Foreman was an example and,to a lesser extent Vitali,both knocked men down with arm punches.Others like Satterfield , Ketchel ,and Wilder swung from the fences,and others still like Louis and Dempsey could drop you with punches that did not travel more than 6 inches.

[them_apples]

Walcott 38 years old outboxed him for the majority of their fight.

"Marciano got to me by just sheer bull dogging ruggedness,and continuously grinding.I hit Rocky Marciano with some shots that would have taken the head off the average guy,but he kept piling on top of me and finally ,you understand when he got me in a position where he could hit me,then it wasn't long before I had to crumple,because I had no legs.Probably I hadn't had any legs for the last 4or 5 years."
Archie Moore taped interview 1970.

Rocky did to Moore what he did to Lastarza he wore him out.
One wonders if he had faced a younger Archie,a younger Walcott,a fresher Charles,if he would have been as successful?

Will you please provide a source for your statement that,"Ali did start firing lethal shots"

"Marciano never struggled with anyone?"
Marciano struggled with
Walcott 1
Lowry1
Charles1
Lastarza1
He was also behind at the half way stage in Lastarza 2.

Charles was slightly lighter for their first fight.
Moore was the same weight.
Mathews was lighter at179lbs.
Lastarza was slightly lighter.
****ell was a fat 205 lbs.
Louis was 213 3/4lbs and washed up.

Walcott and Charles 2 were the only title fights of Marciano's in which Marciano conceded muscle weight to a challenger.
The thing is Marciano COULDN'T box at range,he HAD to get inside,and he was able to do that against a 37 years old Louis,a 38 years old Walcott, a 41 years old Moore, and a twice around the block Charles?
Could he have done it against prime modern sized heavies,or even prime versions of those I named?

Those are quotes from fighters in the ring with him. But we can watch the fight ourselves. Walcott wasn’t in that fight, he was surviving and taking damage in the process. There was no outboxing of Marciano. I am not sure where people make this stuff up, Ive watched his fights so many times and all of them steamroll in one direction after 5 rounds. Charles ans walcott arent outboxing him they are surviving. Same with Moore.

when Walcott says Marciano took his best shots etc etc ya thats just it, walcott could do nothing to the Rock and the rock could hurt him. Walcott makes excuses about everyone.

You put Rocky in with someone who just wants to stand and swing and its gonna be a short night.

the fights you mention that gave him trouble, I watch them with the commentary turned off. Every single one of them is one sided after 5 rounds, and progressively gets worse. The only reason Rocky didnt level these guys sooner is they were able to run from him because he is small with a short reach.

[them_apples]

I really don't wish to annoy you ,but most of this is racially stereotyped tosh.

Leverage plays a big part in punching power but several factors need to be considered,when the effects of punches is evaluated
Q Is the target stationary?
Q.Is the target moving away?
Q.Is the target hit flush?
imo Timing is the most important part of punching. Zhilei Zhang dropped Parker with a straight from the shoulder shot,no rotation from the hips .just a well timed straight punch .
Some guys are just blessed with heavy hands.Foreman was an example and,to a lesser extent Vitali,both knocked men down with arm punches.Others like Satterfield , Ketchel ,and Wilder swung from the fences,and others still like Louis and Dempsey could drop you with punches that did not travel more than 6 inches.

Yea and stereotypes are there for a reason, they are based on real world observation. Nowhere in political science does it equate stereotyping as a myth or a lie. There are always exceptions and we both know that so don’t bring it up.

timing and balance are everything for sure, but in regards to hitting hard only, its up to leverage.