Whos the GOAT?

[kara]

Willie Pep was perhaps the AT greatest pure boxer but not the Goat of all boxing.

Who would you rate above him?

[DooGee#33]

Ali

He made 9 defenses in his first title reign. Got suspended for 3 years. Then made 10 defenses in his second title reign....while beating Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Patterson in his career.

That 2nd reign there were some problems. He didn't win some of those fights Norton 3, Young, Shavers. Out of shape on a few occasions. His loss to Leon Spinks was an embarrassment at best, suspect really.


You can make a good case Ali is the GOAT heavyweight but P4P he's probably top 10.

[LilMac006]

Sugar ray Robinson because he didn't fear anyone or ducked anybody, he faced anyone that was in his way and had the heart of a killer to face anything no matter what. His mentality and his in ring foot work was magic. No fighter matches the magic Ray Robinson had nor will we ever see that type of magic ever again. He also had personality outside of the ring becoming one of the first house hold names in boxing history during that time and he had a strong influence that is still going on to this day. No matter what people say about him he was a gift from god and he paved the way for black fighters to get their name out there and believe that they can become somebody and be great at anything they wanted to do. The only person that comes a close to him is obviously Ali, he was abasically a baby sugar ray Robinson that continued the blueprint Ray Robinson created. That is why in my book Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter of all time.

[Willie Pep 229]

Sugar ray Robinson because he didn't fear anyone or ducked anybody, he faced anyone that was in his way and had the heart of a killer to face anything no matter what. His mentality and his in ring foot work was magic. No fighter matches the magic Ray Robinson had nor will we ever see that type of magic ever again. He also had personality outside of the ring becoming one of the first house hold names in boxing history during that time and he had a strong influence that is still going on to this day. No matter what people say about him he was a gift from god and he paved the way for black fighters to get their name out there and believe that they can become somebody and be great at anything they wanted to do. The only person that comes a close to him is obviously Ali, he was abasically a baby sugar ray Robinson that continued the blueprint Ray Robinson created. That is why in my book Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter of all time.

True but a few times, too much credit. (RE BOLD)

Yes SRR was the first to show that a non-HW could become a super star. That is an important expansion of the fight game's popularity.

But many HWs had reached his level in popularity before him. E.g. Sullivan, Dempsey, Louis, plus others became household names.

Joe Louis is the first Black fighter to show the world that a black man could achieve the highest level. (Not to mention, teach White Society to accept the athletic prowess of the black man.)

IMHO ---> No Joe Louis, no Sugar Ray Robinson as a super star.

P.S. IMHO ---> No Joe Louis, no Jackie Robinson either.

P.S.S. I only take issue with your use of the phrase "first to" - the rest I agree with wholeheartedly.

In short: I believe Joe Louis is the foundation on which all integration of sport is based.

I repeat myself: Joe Louis taught White Society to accept/embrace the athletic prowess of the black athlete. That had to come before all else.

[Slugfester]

Who would you rate above him?

As pure boxer, or ATG status?

[kara]

As pure boxer, or ATG status?

Pure boxer

[Marchegiano]

True but a few times, too much credit. (RE BOLD)

Yes SRR was the first to show that a non-HW could become a super star. That is an important expansion of the fight game's popularity.

But many HWs had reached his level in popularity before him. E.g. Sullivan, Dempsey, Louis, plus others became household names.

Joe Louis is the first Black fighter to show the world that a black man could achieve the highest level. (Not to mention, teach White Society to accept the athletic prowess of the black man.)

IMHO ---> No Joe Louis, no Sugar Ray Robinson as a super star.

P.S. IMHO ---> No Joe Louis, no Jackie Robinson either.

P.S.S. I only take issue with your use of the phrase "first to" - the rest I agree with wholeheartedly.

In short: I believe Joe Louis is the foundation on which all integration of sport is based.

I repeat myself: Joe Louis taught White Society to accept/embrace the athletic prowess of the black athlete. That had to come before all else.

That's an underappreciated post. IMO.

Also, just a little warning, hunting causality in boxing will lead you to ancient times and skint record keeping. That is exactly what happened to me.


I don't mean this to be in anyway considered a counter to the point made by Willie. If anything this is just an anecdote, an aside, loosely relative.


Much of what happens on a more global scale in history also happened on a more localized old world scale. For example, boxing, in terms of racial acceptance in sports, lead the way as Willie explained. Likewise it was boxing that allowed for non Greeks to first win Greek games. Our first champion on record was not a Trojan because he was not from Troy but the people the Torjans belong to, like how a Spartan is a Greek, are Phrygians, and the first boxing champion was one. From a sister city to Troy. It is interesting how history repeats. imo.

[LilMac006]

True but a few times, too much credit. (RE BOLD)

Yes SRR was the first to show that a non-HW could become a super star. That is an important expansion of the fight game's popularity.

But many HWs had reached his level in popularity before him. E.g. Sullivan, Dempsey, Louis, plus others became household names.

Joe Louis is the first Black fighter to show the world that a black man could achieve the highest level. (Not to mention, teach White Society to accept the athletic prowess of the black man.)

IMHO ---> No Joe Louis, no Sugar Ray Robinson as a super star.

P.S. IMHO ---> No Joe Louis, no Jackie Robinson either.

P.S.S. I only take issue with your use of the phrase "first to" - the rest I agree with wholeheartedly.

In short: I believe Joe Louis is the foundation on which all integration of sport is based.

I repeat myself: Joe Louis taught White Society to accept/embrace the athletic prowess of the black athlete. That had to come before all else.

Yeah SRR did say that if it wasn't for joe louis he would've never became a fighter that is true. Joe louis did pay the way for black fighters for sure but SRR paved the way for small black fighters and he paved the way for fighters to be fresh clean and flashy.

[kara]

Charley Burley has entered the chat.

Damn right he has!

[ijudge]

NO GOATS for me

But someone has to be at the top.

I would say Armstrong just because he covered more territory.

That's like a shark that fought and conquered half the seas and oceans in the world. And there was a time when his reign was being emperor of THREE oceans.

SRR is a type of shark that stayed dominant and invincible in a couple of oceans (not at the same time though), he had to move to the different ocean to do that.