Was Lamotta A Top 10 MW all time

[billeau2]

Lists are tough... I can't even make em. I cannot really comment on others because if I made a list of the top 25, or so middle weights I know it would be fit for the men's room wall and little else.

[Willow The Wisp]

It's difficult to interpret such a list without understanding the author's selection criteria, but if you're going to post such a list, it's just plain respectful to in turn respond to any polite challenges to it, or answer polite questions. So you got it.

And you can't honestly say he isn't. It is all so subjective that it means nothing.

That's very true.
There are tier brackets when assigning the overall level that a fighter has demonstrated. A force rank inside those brackets is a Coke v. Pepsi or Chevrolet v. Ford caliber discourse.
I believe it means something, but nothing for which to receive a Nobel prize.

Zale was a Midwestern based fighter who won part of the MW title (NBA) in early 1941. Then unified the title with a decision over Georgie Abrams at The Garden in November 1941, just before America entered the War. Making it his first major New York appearance.
Because he stayed in the Midwest, avoiding New York, he was never going to be able to build much of a pre-title resume.

When he was separated in '45 his exciting trilogy with Graziano '46-'48 then made him a bit of a legend.

Had there been no War I suspect he would have lost the title to either Holman Wiiliams, Burley, SRR or La Motta rather quickly.

My two cents.

P.S. Like many fighters he had to give up what may have been his best four years. We will probably never know what could have been.

That's a good synopsis.
When I compile such a list, like anyone I suspect, some points are awarded for "off-BoxRec" traits like historical impact. A thing even more nebulous than a 4 layer deep QOO calculation, it still matters. So do I add points for the iconic nature of the the Zale-Graziano trilogy?, and the 34' - 48' pond in which he swam to the title in? I do.

Does it make him a "better fighter" than Tiger? Not really. Same bracket. Do I provide him a slightly higher spot, owing, to some degree, to the aforementioned characteristics? I do.
I'm comfortable doing so, and would feel remiss if I didn't.

Ah, but still, again this year, no gilded letter from Nobelstiftelsen.
Talk about remiss!

I am a **** Tiger admirer.
To my imagination, ranking him 28 of 54,054 amongst the professional modern Middleweights reflects this esteem.

But everyone has a good point.

[Ivich]

McVey and Jeannette were young novices when they fought Johnson, Langford was 21 when they fought, McVey 19 and 20. You've never caveated any of your Johnson posts with those facts. Yet for LaMotta you dug deep to find any way to tarnish his wins.

FFS Give up on Jack Johnson! You're as obsessed as DR Z .

I haven't tarnished anything ,neither have I said one single thing that is not true!

FYI I don't consider Johnson's win over Langford as anything noteworthy,and have NEVER pretended it was!
Satterfield had a record of 13-2-1 when he fought 72 fight Lamotta.

Langford had 56 fights under his belt when he fought 46 fight Johnson
SPOT THE DIFFERENCE!

I stated if Lamotta wasn't top ten, he wasn't far away from it, and I picked him to beat Zale! How is that tarnishing him?

Good God, you are positively CREEPY!

[Ivich]

Zale was a Midwestern based fighter who won part of the MW title (NBA) in early 1941. Then unified the title with a decision over Georgie Abrams at The Garden in November 1941, just before America entered the War. Making it his first major New York appearance.

Because he stayed in the Midwest, avoiding New York, he was never going to be able to build much of a pre-title resume.

When he was separated in '45 his exciting trilogy with Graziano '46-'48 then made him a bit of a legend.

Had there been no War I suspect he would have lost the title to either Holman Wiiliams, Burley, SRR or La Motta rather quickly.

My two cents.

P.S. Like many fighters he had to give up what may have been his best four years. We will probably never know what could have been.

I don't really blame Zale for looking for his pension plan after the war, and side stepping men rated above his opponent Graziano , but prior to the war he could have fought;
Vigh
Overlin
Moore
Charles
Belloise
Richards
Marshall
Basora
Williams
Burley
And he didn't.

[Willie Pep 229]

I don't really blame Zale for looking for his pension plan after the war, and side stepping men rated above his opponent Graziano , but prior to the war he could have fought;
Vigh
Overlin
Moore
Charles
Belloise
Richards
Marshall
Basora
Williams
Burley
And he didn't.

Definitely taking the Graziano fight makes perfect sense.

Graziano had sold out MSG four times during the War and with his crude but exciting style was being called the uncrowned MW Champion in New York.

The number one contender in 1946 was Holman Williams. A Zale-Williams fight would never have drawn like Zale-Graziano did. (Yankee Stadium)

Zale-Williams would have had a hard time filling MSG and never would have become a 'ball park' fight.

What was unfair to Williams was that the first Zale-Graziano fight was so damn exciting that it demanded a rematch, and then a trilogy. This extended their bouts all the way out to 1948.

Holman Williams in 1947 saw the writing on the wall and moved up to LHW. But then he ran into the Old Mongoose and never got a shot at either title.

[GhostofDempsey]

FFS Give up on Jack Johnson! You're as obsessed as DR Z .

I haven't tarnished anything ,neither have I said one single thing that is not true!

FYI I don't consider Johnson's win over Langford as anything noteworthy,and have NEVER pretended it was!
Satterfield had a record of 13-2-1 when he fought 72 fight Lamotta.

Langford had 56 fights under his belt when he fought 46 fight Johnson
SPOT THE DIFFERENCE!

I stated if Lamotta wasn't top ten, he wasn't far away from it, and I picked him to beat Zale! How is that tarnishing him?

Good God, you are positively CREEPY!

Nope, you're marginalizing LaMotta's record while glossing over the record of other fighters. If we break down the great Robinson's resume you'll see his record is padded with dozens of wins over no-hopers and novices. He beat a smaller past prime Armstrong, a shot Graziano, a smaller Basilio with 12 losses, a much smaller Angott, 3x he fought Jannazzo who had as many losses and draws as he had wins, I can go on. See how this works? We can pick apart anyone's resume no matter how great, but you are very selective about who you pick apart. Then you have a meltdown when you're called out on it. You were trying to flex your knowledge and it backfired. Take a pill, it's not that serious. LOL

[Ivich]

Definitely taking the Graziano fight makes perfect sense.

Graziano had sold out MSG four times during the War and with his crude but exciting style was being called the uncrowned MW Champiin in New York.

The number one contender in 1946 was Holman Williams. A Zale-Williams fight would never have drawn like Zale-Graziano did. (Yankee Stadium).

Zale-Williams would have had a hard time filling MSG and never would have become a 'ball park' fight.

What was unfair to Williams was that the first Zale-Graziano fight was so damn exciting that it demanded a rematch, and then a trilogy. This extended their bouts all the way out to 1948.

Holman Williams in 1947 saw the writing on the wall and moved up to LHW. But then he ran into the Old Mongoose and never got a shot at either title.

If Zale had been prime against Graziano there would have been no need for a trilogy,imo.

[Willie Pep 229]

If Zale had been prime against Graziano there would have been no need for a trilogy,imo.

Yea, Graziano always had a puncher's chance, but Zale was the better fighter.

[Willow The Wisp]

FFS Give up on Jack Johnson! You're as obsessed as DR Z .

I haven't tarnished anything ,neither have I said one single thing that is not true!

FYI I don't consider Johnson's win over Langford as anything noteworthy,and have NEVER pretended it was!
Satterfield had a record of 13-2-1 when he fought 72 fight Lamotta.

Langford had 56 fights under his belt when he fought 46 fight Johnson
SPOT THE DIFFERENCE!

I stated if Lamotta wasn't top ten, he wasn't far away from it, and I picked him to beat Zale! How is that tarnishing him?

Good God, you are positively CREEPY!

Good post Ivich, and when we come with numbers that tell the whole story, it represents forethought and substance.

I was about to hit "Like" on the post when I spotted "Good God, you are positively CREEPY!". That seemed one shot over the required allotment for me.

[Ivich]

Nope, you're marginalizing LaMotta's record while glossing over the record of other fighters. If we break down the great Robinson's resume you'll see his record is padded with dozens of wins over no-hopers and novices. He beat a smaller past prime Armstrong, a shot Graziano, a smaller Basilio with 12 losses, a much smaller Angott, 3x he fought Jannazzo who had as many losses and draws as he had wins, I can go on. See how this works? We can pick apart anyone's resume no matter how great, but you are very selective about who you pick apart. Then you have a meltdown when you're called out on it. You were trying to flex your knowledge and it backfired. Take a pill, it's not that serious. LOL

You cited Lamotta's noted fights as the following.
"Handed Robinson his first loss and was robbed in another of their bouts. Fought him very close in three other encounters and was doing well in fist half of their final match. He fought several of the black murderer’s row such as Holman Williams, Lloyd Marshall, Bert Lytell, while also defeating Zivic, Satterfield, Cerdan, and Reeves.".
I pointed out Robinson was conceding16 pounds to him.
I pointed out Jake only beat 1 of that Murderers Row trio ,so naming the other 2 was irrelevant.
Zivic was a welter who conceding 6 1.2lbs and 10,1/2lbs beat him twice.
Cerdan had to retire injured.
Satterfield was a novice who had beaten nobody.
Angott was what 4 lbs lighter? Hardly 16 lbs is it?
If you wanted to"flex your knowledge," you would have done better to mention Jake's wins over middleweights, some of which were impressive.Dauthille,Mitri,Villemain,Basora,and a past prime Williams for example,but you didn't.
I'm not trying to show my knowledge, I cribbed those stats directly from Box rec.
There is nobody on this forum I feel the urge to try and impress lol. I can't take a pill I'm in the middle of taking a litre of Movi Prep,I have a procedure tomorrow.
Just please don't try and ascribe motives to me I do not have.