If Dempsey Had Defended Against Wills,Godfrey & Norfolk?

[Ivich]

Yes, Gibbons was to get 25% of the film revenue, the Shelby promoters got the other 75%. Dempsey got zero percent of the film rights.

On this issue Kearns out-smarted Shelby. He pushed them from 200K to 300K and gave away the film right completely.

What Kearns likely knew, and Shelby did not know was that Rickard had bribed his way pass the Sims Law (interstate prohibition against transporting prize fight films) to show the Carpentier fight in several cities. Kearns understood he probably wouldn't be able to pull the same rabbit out of his ass.

Certainly Shelby couldn't.

The result. The very night that Kearns raided the cash box for receipts (between 20k and 80K depending on who you believe), Shelby's people put the film negative on an air transport heading to New York. At the small upstate New York airport the federal government people were waiting for them to land. The film was seized by the federal government. ****

Back in 1921 (Carpentier film) it was the corrupt Harding Administration with AG Daughtry; kickbacks were the proper way to do business.

By July 1923 Harding was dead, Daughtry in prison, and Silent Cal Coolidge was an honest man. He cleaned house. Everyone was scared to act corrupt. The feds seized the film and it never saw the light of day.

P.S. Things by 1923 had gotten so tight that Rickard had a very difficult time getting Dempsey-Firpo to show anywhere except New York only.

In short Brennan and Shelby got nothing put of the film.

The feds did us a favor. It's why we have a nice print of the Dempsey-Gibbons fight. So many other films we have today are duplications of films that got beat up during theater presentations.

Both the JJ-Flynn film and Dempsey-Gibbons films taken as evidence.

So when the prohibition was lifted in 1940 they had two well preserved negatives they could make prints of.

In contrast the Firpo fight which was shown all over New York and is today a spliced together mess of chopped up, beat up, film created from theater presentation duplications.

**** I have always wondered if Kearns tipped of the feds. I can't see what's in it for him. But it was the death knell for Shelby. Their last chance to get even ended on an air strip in upstate New York.

Excellent post!

[Ivich]

Your brain is defective. I am not talking about Jeffries who fought all of his top competition when active. As did Wlad and Vitali for the most part. It is history that Louis did not fight many black fighters. Indeed. Louis only fought two back men in his 26 title defenses! One had vision problems and in this last fight which would not pass the commission today. The other beat Louis over 15 rounds, so says 2/3 of the sports reporters at ring side. We have been over this before and I do not want to go over it with you again.

Now a 4 round session gives us a good clue on how the first four rounds would go. What was Dempsey trying here and allowing Greb to out class him and him in the face.

Isn't the reporting good? I find the reaches between the two fights close, but the movement obvisouly is not. Nor is the defense. Let's talk about the thread which you started, shall we?

No Jeffries didn't he avoided McVey,Martin and Johnson and everybody knows it! Both Klits avoided contenders, this isnt even up for discussion.
You slagged off Louis FOR fighting John Henry Lewis who was losing the lateral vision in one eye.
Then you slag off Dempsey for NOT fighting the totally blind in one eye Greb!

This would be hilarious, if it wasn't so blatantly hypocritical!
!
You don't want to debate? Then stay the **** off my threads,you add nothing to them except a pack of misspelt lies anyway

[GhostofDempsey]

I believe Dempsey was dirty. No need to add the word "tad." Just business as usual for the day.

I believe Dempsey ducked no one. Dempsey would have foght whoever Kearns said fight and wouldn't fight anyone Kearns said don't fight.

After Kearns left, that decision-making went to Floyd Fitzsimmons.

You don't live the life Dempsey lived, and have a carrer like Dempsey had, and then suddenly one day become scared to fight someone.

Dempsey "Runs off" what a ridiculous article to believe.

For all of the talk of Dempsey being dirty, Wills was DQ'd or fights were declared NC because of his tactics on about 6 occasions. McVey, Tate, Thompson, Sharkey, members of the press and other fighters said he was dirty and he preferred to hold on with one hand while clubbing opponents with the other. He often hit after the bell, on the break or when a fighter was already down, low blows were plentiful and common. Greb had a reputation as a dirty fighter as well. The people on here calling Jack dirty are deliberately glossing over the reputations of many other fighters of the era who were considered dirty. Dempsey openly admits he knew how to mix it up and when he had to he would push the boundaries but not enough to be DQ'd. The truth is, boxing was a rough and tumble sport during that era. Just about all fighters were pushing the boundaries when the going got tough.

[Dr. Z]

I believe Dempsey was dirty. No need to add the word "tad." Just business as usual for the day.

I believe Dempsey ducked no one. Dempsey would have foght whoever Kearns said fight and wouldn't fight anyone Kearns said don't fight.

After Kearns left, that decision-making went to Floyd Fitzsimmons.

You don't live the life Dempsey lived, and have a carrer like Dempsey had, and then suddenly one day become scared to fight someone.

Dempsey "Runs off" what a ridiculous article to believe.

Please, he ducked Wills who was his #1 contender for years. If he #1 contender does not receive a title shot for years and never does, he was ducked by the champion.

[Dr. Z]

No Jeffries didn't he avoided McVey,Martin and Johnson and everybody knows it! Both Klits avoided contenders, this isnt even up for discussion.
You slagged off Louis FOR fighting John Henry Lewis who was losing the lateral vision in one eye.
Then you slag off Dempsey for NOT fighting the totally blind in one eye Greb!

This would be hilarious, if it wasn't so blatantly hypocritical!
!
You don't want to debate? Then stay the **** off my threads,you add nothing to them except a pack of misspelt lies anyway

Please! Jeffries made more vs. Fitz, Sharkey, and Corbett. Like double! I think Martin's offer was a one time thing in the press for $15,000 and not even reviewed by Jeffries manager. Prove it was instead if making lies as you do! Now I told you I am not going to discuss Louis or Jeffries in detail in this tread in detail. We been over it. You started this thread.

Greb was not blind in one eye when he when he made Jack look silly in sparring and the exhibition match. That is very dishonest of you. I am providing factual information and links to the readers. Do you think I care if you don't like it?

I will debate my points made. You clearly do not answer them and bring up stuff that has nothing to do with the thread, your thread.

We will try not to laugh at your one eye view and your hand in your jacket.

[Dr. Z]

Yes, Gibbons was to get 25% of the film revenue, the Shelby promoters got the other 75%. Dempsey got zero percent of the film rights.

On this issue Kearns out-smarted Shelby. He pushed them from 200K to 300K and gave away the film right completely.

What Kearns likely knew, and Shelby did not know was that Rickard had bribed his way pass the Sims Law (interstate prohibition against transporting prize fight films) to show the Carpentier fight in several cities. Kearns understood he probably wouldn't be able to pull the same rabbit out of his ass.

Certainly Shelby couldn't.

The result. The very night that Kearns raided the cash box for receipts (between 20k and 80K depending on who you believe), Shelby's people put the film negative on an air transport heading to New York. At the small upstate New York airport the federal government people were waiting for them to land. The film was seized by the federal government. ****

Back in 1921 (Carpentier film) it was the corrupt Harding Administration with AG Daughtry; kickbacks were the proper way to do business.

By July 1923 Harding was dead, Daughtry in prison, and Silent Cal Coolidge was an honest man. He cleaned house. Everyone was scared to act corrupt. The feds seized the film and it never saw the light of day.

P.S. Things by 1923 had gotten so tight that Rickard had a very difficult time getting Dempsey-Firpo to show anywhere except New York only.

In short Gibbons and Shelby got nothing out of the film.

The feds did us a favor. It's why we have a nice print of the Dempsey-Gibbons fight. So many other films we have today are duplications of films that got beat up during theater presentations.

Both the JJ-Flynn film and Dempsey-Gibbons films were taken as evidence.

So when the prohibition was lifted in 1940 they had two well preserved negatives they could make prints of.

In contrast the Firpo fight which was shown all over New York and is today a spliced together mess of chopped up, beat up, film created from theater presentation duplications.

**** I have always wondered if Kearns tipped of the feds. I can't see what's in it for him. But it was the death knell for Shelby. Their last chance to get even ended on an air strip in upstate New York.

That post was not directed at me, but it was a good one.

[Willie Pep 229]

Please, he ducked Wills who was his #1 contender for years. If he #1 contender does not receive a title shot for years and never does, he was ducked by the champion.

Wills couldn't be ranked #1until 1924. Those rankings were created by Tex Rickard. Tex Rickard the one promoter who could and wouldn't make the fight happen.

Kind of a sad irony.

But as far as your "for years" comment. You need to make the point (which is doable) without using the rankings, because Wills is only ranked #1 for 1924 and 1925. By (end of 1926) he slipped to #6.

As I said it is doable for 1920 through 1923 but you have to depend on what the NYSAC and (after 1921) maybe the NBA, had to say on the matter. ****

I don't think either actually created rankings during those years. The NBA only listed (in no particular order) what it considered to be "worthy challengers."

The NYSAC I don't believe ever had rankings either, but there is no doubt that they supported Wills the the fighter worthy of the next title shot.

So one can argue that Wills was unquestionably a worthy challenger for a solid six years, 1920 -1925.

But the ranking argument you try to use doesn't hold up, nor make any serious point. Too early to try to sway an argument with rankings.

**** BTW If you do that, that will make you a scationing body bitch. Even then both those organizations were already acting corrupt (political).

[Ivich]

Please! Jeffries made more vs. Fitz, Sharkey, and Corbett. Like double! I think Martin's offer was a one time thing in the press for $15,000 and not even reviewed by Jeffries manager. Prove it was instead if making lies as you do! Now I told you I am not going to discuss Louis or Jeffries in detail in this tread in detail. We been over it. You started this thread.

Greb was not blind in one eye when he when he made Jack look silly in sparring and the exhibition match. That is very dishonest of you. I am providing factual information and links to the readers. Do you think I care if you don't like it?

I will debate my points made. You clearly do not answer them and bring up stuff that has nothing to do with the thread, your thread.

We will try not to laugh at your one eye view and your hand in your jacket.

The guaranteed offer to fight Martin was about 5 years before Jeffries got less for defending against Munroe which is why Jeffries retired in the first place,because he could no longer make decent money fighting the white challengers, and he wasn't prepared to rick losing his title to a black challenger,whatever his purse would have been.

Greb went blind in one eye in1921 as a result of a thumbing by dirty fighter Kid Norfolk .Dempsey had only been champ fpr 2 of the 7 years he held the title. You are constantly on Dempsey's case for not defending against the one eyed Greb, yet castigate Louis for defending against Lewis who was NOT blind in one eye!
You're a hypocrite!


Why do you say we? Do you see anyone agreeing with you here?

[Dr. Z]

The guaranteed offer to fight Martin was about 5 years before Jeffries got less for defending against Munroe which is why Jeffries retired in the first place,because he could no longer make decent money fighting the white challengers, and he wasn't prepared to rick losing his title to a black challenger,whatever his purse would have been.

Greb went blind in one eye in1921 as a result of a thumbing by dirty fighter Kid Norfolk .Dempsey had only been champ fpr 2 of the 7 years he held the title. You are constantly on Dempsey's case for not defending against the one eyed Greb, yet castigate Louis for defending against Lewis who was NOT blind in one eye!
You're a hypocrite!


Why do you say we? Do you see anyone agreeing with you here?

Greb went blind in one eye in 1921??? Wrong liar! And Greb whipped Dempsey a@@ while sparing and in the exhibition match. Jeffries retired after Monroe in 1904. Matin was Ko'd several times before that time. Got it? Jeffries has a reported KO over Martin in case you are interest in that.

Joe Louis fought Jon Henry Lewis in Lewis last fight, he was forced to retried afterwards. Greb boxed plenty after 1921.

Look if up, and stop being such a liar and fool.

Some should help you.

[Dr. Z]

Wills couldn't be ranked #1until 1924. Those rankings were created by Tex Rickard. Tex Rickard the one promoter who could and wouldn't make the fight happen.

Kind of a sad irony.

But as far as your "for years" comment. You need to make the point (which is doable) without using the rankings, because Wills is only ranked #1 for 1924 and 1925. By (end of 1926) he slipped to #6.

As I said it is doable for 1920 through 1923 but you have to depend on what the NYSAC and (after 1921) maybe the NBA, had to say on the matter. ****

I don't think either actually created rankings during those years. The NBA only listed (in no particular order) what it considered to be "worthy challengers."

The NYSAC I don't believe ever had rankings either, but there is no doubt that they supported Wills the the fighter worthy of the next title shot.

So one can argue that Wills was unquestionably a worthy challenger for a solid six years, 1920 -1925.

But the ranking argument you try to use doesn't hold up, nor make any serious point. Too early to try to sway an argument with rankings.

**** BTW If you do that, that will make you a scationing body bitch. Even then both those organizations were already acting corrupt (political).

Do you have the NYSAC heavyweight rankings for 1923-1919?