If Dempsey Had Defended Against Wills,Godfrey & Norfolk?

[Dr. Z]

I can't argue against this, except the Greb "duck" is debatable. I don't think Dempsey took it seriously because of Greb's size. Maybe the sparring sessions made him doubt he'd catch the rabbit, too.

Well Greb would be about 170+ pounds. About the same weights of Dempsey title opponents in Carpentier ( 172 lbs ) and Gibbons ( 175 lbs ) Did he take them seriously? IMO, Dempsey ducked Greb.

Fans forget Dempsey was bean by four men below 200 pounds! And drew a few times to men under 200 pounds.

Just staring the facts. In sparring Greb schooled Dempsey.

I suggest fan intrrested


in Greb vs. Dempsey read

https://www.harrygreb.com/dempsey_greb.html

Dempsey tackled Bill Tate, Harry Greb and Marty Farrell this afternoon. He took them on in that order, boxing two rounds with Tate and three each with Greb and Farrell. The bout with Greb was a real one. It was the best work-out Dempsey has had. The Pittsburgher was in prime shape, and although he weighs only 165 pounds he gave the champion a real honust-to-goodness battle. Dempsey hasn't seen so many gloves in a long time as Greb showed him. Greb was all over him and kept forcing him around the ring throughout the session. Dempsey could do but little with the speedy light heavyweight, while Greb seemed to be able to hit Dempsey almost at will. Time and again Greb made the champion miss with his famous right and left hooks to the head and countered with heavy swings to the head and hooks to the body.

--Greb Lightning Fast--

Greb was a veritable whirlwind. Twenty-five pounds lighter than the champion and about four inches shorter, Harry made the champion step lively. He had to jump off the floor to hit Dempsey in the head when the latter was standing straight, but managed to do it and landed without leaving himself open to Jack's snappy hooks and short swings. One of the most notable things about Dempsey's boxing is the fact that he is not hitting as straight as he did in Toledo. This is not a particularly good sign. Why he should hook and swing his blows more is a mystery. He can hit straight when he wants to, and when he does his blows carry a wealth of power behind them, for the champion knows how to put his powerful shoulders behind his punches and how also to get the necessary asistance from his legs by rising to the ball of the rearward foot when the punch gets over. It may be that Dempsey does not care to hit straight from the shoulder, fearing to punish his partners too severly.

And this private " fight " which was as exhibition with Dempsey mager the referee. ------"It is not generally known however, that Greb and Dempsey did actually meet in the ring. It was at Jack's Atlantic City training camp. They were to box four rounds with sixteen ounce training gloves. Jack Kearns refereed. Harry came snorting out of his corner raising hell with the heaveyweight champion's middle. Dempsey looked confused, he hesitated about throwing punches at first. But he became desperate along about the second round and started putting ginger behind his left hooks. But Greb raced around so fast and poked so many jabs into Jack's face that the great Mauler couldn't land one solid wallop during the entire exhibition. The next day, in bold black type the size off an egg, some papers carried the headline "GREB MAKES DEMPSEY LOOK LIKE A KITTEN."

[Ivich]

Well Greb would be about 170+ pounds. About the same weights of Dempsey title opponents in Carpentier ( 172 lbs ) and Gibbons ( 175 lbs ) Did he take them seriously? IMO, Dempsey ducked Greb.

Fans forget Dempsey was bean by four men below 200 pounds! And drew a few times to men under 200 pounds.

Just staring the facts. In sparring Greb schooled Dempsey.

I suggest fan intrrested


in Greb vs. Dempsey read

https://www.harrygreb.com/dempsey_greb.html

So a sparring session over 4 rds tells us how a real fight over the championship distance would turn out?
Loughran schooled Dempsey over 3 rds,how would he fare over 12 rds?
Dempsey was never going to fight Greb it was a classic no win situation,for Jack .
If Greb did well for a few rounds before succumbing to Dempsey's firepower the papers would be praising Harry and slagging off Jack.
If Jack took Harry out in a few rounds they writers would be saying well Harry is only a middleweight.
Sensible,objective posters are well aware of this.
In the last few weeks you have persistently attacked Joe Louis,Lennox Lewis,and Jack Dempsey,making false claims about all of them.
Louis ducked southpaws and black challengers. Lewis ducked southpaws and a rematch with Vitali,though he would have been 38 by the time a rematch was put together,Dempsey was scared of Greb, and hit Sharkey when he wasnt looking. etc.
You must be running out of all time great targets to defame and character assassinate by now !
In1923 175lbs Tunney won 9 rounds to Greb's 4, what leads you to believe the 190lbs Dempsey a far harder hitting fighter would not improve on Tunneys perfomance?

Its informative that you are so ready to attack these great fighters,yet are equally as ready to excuse Jeffries,and the Klit Bros for their shortcomings.

[Dr. Z]

Ivich,

So a sparring session over 4 rds tells us how a real fight over the championship distance would turn out?
Loughran schooled Dempsey over 3 rds,how would he fare over 12 rds?
Dempsey was never going to fight Greb it was a classic no win situation,for Jack .
If Greb did well for a few rounds before succumbing to Dempsey's firepower the papers would be praising Harry and slagging off Jack.
If Jack took Harry out in a few rounds they writers would be saying well Harry is only a middleweight.
Sensible,objective posters are well aware of this.
In the last few weeks you have persistently attacked Joe Louis,Lennox Lewis,and Jack Dempsey,making false claims about all of them.
Louis ducked southpaws and black challengers. Lewis ducked southpaws and a rematch with Vitali,though he would have been 38 by the time a rematch was put together,Dempsey was scared of Greb, and hit Sharkey when he wasnt looking. etc.
You must be running out of all time great targets to defame and character assassinate by now !
In1923 175lbs Tunney won 9 rounds to Greb's 4, what leads you to believe the 190lbs Dempsey a far harder hitting fighter would not improve on Tunneys perfomance?

Its informative that you are so ready to attack these great fighters,yet are equally as ready to excuse Jeffries,and the Klit Bros for their shortcomings.

Your brain is defective. I am not talking about Jeffries who fought all of his top competition when active. As did Wlad and Vitali for the most part. It is history that Louis did not fight many black fighters. Indeed. Louis only fought two back men in his 26 title defenses! One had vision problems and in this last fight which would not pass the commission today. The other beat Louis over 15 rounds, so says 2/3 of the sports reporters at ring side. We have been over this before and I do not want to go over it with you again.

Now a 4 round session gives us a good clue on how the first four rounds would go. What was Dempsey trying here and allowing Greb to out class him and him in the face.

Isn't the reporting good? I find the reaches between the two fights close, but the movement obvisouly is not. Nor is the defense. Let's talk about the thread which you started, shall we?

[Willie Pep 229]

Your brain is defective. I am not talking about Jeffries who fought all of his top competition when active. As did Wlad and Vitali for the most part. It is history that Louis did not fight many black fighters. Indeed. Louis only fought two back men in his 26 title defenses! One had vision problems and in this last fight which would not pass the commission today. The other beat Louis over 15 rounds, so says 2/3 of the sports reporters at ring side. We have been over this before and I do not want to go over it with you again.

Now a 4 round session gives us a good clue on how the first four rounds would go. What was Dempsey trying here and allowing Greb to out class him and him in the face.

Isn't the reporting good? I find the reaches between the two fights close, but the movement obvisouly is not. Nor is the defense. Let's talk about the thread which you started, shall we?

We know well whom you think little of, I am curious is there anyone you think highly of?

[GhostofDempsey]

Agreed.

To add to it, go back to Carpenter. Rickard offered Kearns a guarantee plus a percentage. Kearns insisted on a flat 300k and got it.

After the 1.2 million dollar gate, the newspaper guys had a field day ridiculing Kearns.

Had Kearns taken the original offer Dempsey would have pulled in (the newspaper guys did the math, right there in the newspaper) 470K plus.

Kearns' gaff cost Dempsey 170K and Rickard made sure everyone knew he had out negotiated Doc Kearns.

I believe that's where Kearns came up with the 500K guarantee. He wasn't going to be made to look ****** again.

When you look at Shelby, Kearns had wasted half of 1921 and all of 1922 trying to get a 500K guarantee. So when he finally found Shelby he knew they could never meet the 500K, so he insisted on 300K guarantee plus a percentage.

Notice the numbers: 300K flat rate just like the Carpentier fight, but this time he wouldn't leave behind the percentage and look the fool again.

You stop and think, Dempsey fought on July 4th 1921 and July 4th 1923. Kearns blew two years jerking everyone around and then dropped the ball in Shelby.

I believe Shelby was the beginning of the end for Dempsey-Kearns. But that's a story for another day.

Rickard later on stated Dempsey essentially got just 18% of the Carpentier gate and had he asked for even twice that he would have given it to him. Dempsey could have gotten $600K from the $1.6 million gate. From then on Dempsey told Kearns to make sure the money is right. It wasn't long after he parted ways with Kearns.

Notice how there aren't any names from the ALLEGED Montreal offer. Who offered the actual $350K? What were the terms? Size of venue? Why was it offered in May with less than 6 weeks notice? We don't even know who the writer of that article was? Did Mullins pay to have it printed? It's just more gotcha nonsense. The fight could not be made in NY, NJ, MA, and just about anywhere stateside. There also wasn't a long line of promoters looking to put up the money on Wills' end. Dempsey's $500K demand was well within reason.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Without Dempsey and esp Louis the heavywt division woulda been set back until the 60s.

[Willie Pep 229]

Rickard later on stated Dempsey essentially got just 18% of the Carpentier gate and had he asked for even twice that he would have given it to him. Dempsey could have gotten $600K from the $1.6 million gate. From then on Dempsey told Kearns to make sure the money is right. It wasn't long after he parted ways with Kearns.

Notice how there aren't any names from the ALLEGED Montreal offer. Who offered the actual $350K? What were the terms? Size of venue? Why was it offered in May with less than 6 weeks notice? We don't even know who the writer of that article was? Did Mullins pay to have it printed? It's just more gotcha nonsense. The fight could not be made in NY, NJ, MA, and just about anywhere stateside. There also wasn't a long line of promoters looking to put up the money on Wills' end. Dempsey's $500K demand was well within reason.

There were no terms. It was Kearns blowing smoke up everyone's ass.

We agree big time.

After Carpentier, Kearns was determined to get both pieces of the pie. Dempsey's and the promoter's end.

That's why he went on his western tour. He was determined to stage a fight that would be out of Rickard's reach.

Of course Kearns eventually found out he was no damn promoter and Rickard was worth his share of the revenue.

Eventually Dempsey, after Shelby, realized he needed Rickard. IMO Shelby was the beginning of the end of Dempsey-Kearns. For all intent Kearns self-destructed in Shelby.

Look back at the article on the Montreal fight, the hatchet job T-NY posted. It states Wills was all in. Of course he was, but because Wills came out of New York that meant Rickard was right there ready to get involved.

How did he, Rickard, get involved? He tried up Wills with an offer (who ofcourse would have grabbed at any chance) but then nothing happened with Kearns, because Kearns did not want to deal with Rickard.

That was the last thing Kearns wanted.

On his western tour he, Kearns, tried to get a Brennan fight in Michigan, he offered a Wills fight in Montreal (until Rickard appears via Wiils and then Kearns wants out). Kearns tried to make a Greb deal with a Pittsburgh promoter but the guy could not come close to the guarantee, and he, Kearns even tried verbally to push a Jack Johnson fight in Mexico.

DIGRESSION: Kearns doesn't make much noise about a Willard fight. That's because Willard was signed with Rickard. (Rickard used Wiilard to build up Firpo.)

BACK: Doc Kearns between fall 1921 and Janurary 1923 (when he finally began negotiations with Shelby) tried to make any fight he could so long as his guarantee was met, and more importantly Rickard wasn't involved. Thus they ended up in Montana. Rickard had a long reach and Kearns had to go to the boondocks to get away from Rickard.

I am convinced that if you want to understand Dempsey and the Wills non-fight, circa 1922, you need to study Kearns and Rickard.

Both Dempsey and Wills were used as pawns as Rickard and Kearns battled for Dempsey's soul (contract.).

Finally. Ever notice how someone might argue that Don King and Bob Arum caused a big fight not to happen because of their fued? Posters today would say, 'of course that's boxing,' even complaining about the problem.

But I say lets apply the same boxing reality to Kearns-Rickard and all I get back is nonsense about Dempsey's moral obligations, Dempsey is scare, yah, yah, yah!

[Dr. Z]

We know well whom you think little of, I am curious is there anyone you think highly of?

Yes. But this thread is about the cruiser weight sized Dempsey. A man who was beaten by 4 guys under 200 pounds and drew some the others. And he ducked his best two potential opponents. And some other guys were not selected. I say he is over rated and a tad dirty. Your opinion is?

Old timers I think highly of 1920's is Tunney, Greb and Leonard. But that is for another thread.

[Willie Pep 229]

Yes. But this thread is about the cruiser weight sized Dempsey. A man who was beaten by 4 guys under 200 pounds and drew some the others. And he ducked his best two potential opponents. And some other guys were not selected. I say he is over rated and a tad dirty. Your opinion is?

Old timers I think highly of 1920's is Tunney, Greb and Leonard. But that is for another thread.

I believe Dempsey was dirty. No need to add the word "tad." Just business as usual for the day.

I believe Dempsey ducked no one. Dempsey would have foght whoever Kearns said fight and wouldn't fight anyone Kearns said don't fight.

After Kearns left, that decision-making went to Floyd Fitzsimmons.

You don't live the life Dempsey lived, and have a carrer like Dempsey had, and then suddenly one day become scared to fight someone.

Dempsey "Runs off" what a ridiculous article to believe.

[Willie Pep 229]

That was gate money, not sure what the haul was on motion movie money. Gibbons was to get 25% of movie take, which was estimated at $150K, I would imagine Dempsey’s percentage was as much or higher. Gibbons also hauled in about $15K in side money from sparring exhibitions during training camp.

Kearns publicity stunt also showed the world the influence and value of Dempsey where he could go to a nowhere town and they built a 40K seat arena, a five story hotel and laid 40 miles of railroad track to accommodate attendees. No other fighter had that sort of clout. He also knew he was getting a $100K forfeit if the fight was called off. It proved to be one of Dempsey’s better wins coming off an 18 month layoff.

Yes, Gibbons was to get 25% of the film revenue, the Shelby promoters got the other 75%. Dempsey got zero percent of the film rights.

On this issue Kearns out-smarted Shelby. He pushed them from 200K to 300K and gave away the film right completely.

What Kearns likely knew, and Shelby did not know was that Rickard had bribed his way pass the Sims Law (interstate prohibition against transporting prize fight films) to show the Carpentier fight in several cities. Kearns understood he probably wouldn't be able to pull the same rabbit out of his ass.

Certainly Shelby couldn't.

The result. The very night that Kearns raided the cash box for receipts (between 20k and 80K depending on who you believe), Shelby's people put the film negative on an air transport heading to New York. At the small upstate New York airport the federal government people were waiting for them to land. The film was seized by the federal government. ****

Back in 1921 (Carpentier film) it was the corrupt Harding Administration with AG Daughtry; kickbacks were the proper way to do business.

By July 1923 Harding was dead, Daughtry in prison, and Silent Cal Coolidge was an honest man. He cleaned house. Everyone was scared to act corrupt. The feds seized the film and it never saw the light of day.

P.S. Things by 1923 had gotten so tight that Rickard had a very difficult time getting Dempsey-Firpo to show anywhere except New York only.

In short Gibbons and Shelby got nothing out of the film.

The feds did us a favor. It's why we have a nice print of the Dempsey-Gibbons fight. So many other films we have today are duplications of films that got beat up during theater presentations.

Both the JJ-Flynn film and Dempsey-Gibbons films were taken as evidence.

So when the prohibition was lifted in 1940 they had two well preserved negatives they could make prints of.

In contrast the Firpo fight which was shown all over New York and is today a spliced together mess of chopped up, beat up, film created from theater presentation duplications.

**** I have always wondered if Kearns tipped of the feds. I can't see what's in it for him. But it was the death knell for Shelby. Their last chance to get even ended on an air strip in upstate New York.