I give up - Overrated / Underrated is a term widely in use.

[Willow The Wisp]

I rarely consider a heavyweight for P4P. Most of their skills at HW don’t carry over well in lighter classes. Joshua and Wilder are one dimensional. But their size and power gives them a distinct advantage at HW in a weight class that often sees 30-40 pound weight disparages between opponents. Joshua carrying his skills down to welter weight never makes it as an amateur let alone a pro. Dempsey, Langford, Tunney, Louis, Ali, Holmes, Holyfield are examples of HW’s who I would consider for P4P discussions.

This calls to mind that for me, "One dimensional" is yet another term that is "Overrated". It glosses over the fact that it is the EFFECTIVENESS of a fighter's style that is self evidently more important that the complexity, or flashiness or creativeness of their style.
Effectiveness is measured in performance.
You rank Wilder and Joshua lower "P4P", than other recent smaller fighters like GGG, Pacquiao and Spence, and I have no issue with that; as they are better exhibitors of the art. But toss those three into the ring with Wilder or Joshua and the big boys will show us quick which dimension matters the most.
I guess that's essentially why we've come up with the fictitious term P4P.

[GhostofDempsey]

This calls to mind that for me, "One dimensional" is yet another term that is "Overrated". It glosses over the fact that it is the EFFECTIVENESS of a fighter's style that is self evidently more important that the complexity, or flashiness or creativeness of their style.
Effectiveness is measured in performance.
You rank Wilder and Joshua lower "P4P", than other recent smaller fighters like GGG, Pacquiao and Spence, and I have no issue with that; as they are better exhibitors of the art. But toss those three into the ring with Wilder or Joshua and the big boys will show us quick which dimension matters the most.
I guess that's essentially why we've come up with the fictitious term P4P.

But on a P4P basis, we have to assume that a GGG, Pacquiao or Spence in the ring with Wilder or AJ would also carry their skill sets up to HW, thus easily outboxing either of them. My idea of P4P would mean we shrink Wilder down to 5’8” and all he takes with him is his big right hand, along with his horrible footwork, awkward movement, inability to slip or duck punches, and all the other nuances he lacks. He doesn’t last three rounds with any of them. A 6’6” fighter with Manny’s speed, footwork, power that moves up proportionally, combinations, and work rate is unstoppable.

[Willow The Wisp]

But on a P4P basis, we have to assume that a GGG, Pacquiao or Spence in the ring with Wilder or AJ would also carry their skill sets up to HW, thus easily outboxing either of them. My idea of P4P would mean we shrink Wilder down to 5’8” and all he takes with him is his big right hand, along with his horrible footwork, awkward movement, inability to slip or duck punches, and all the other nuances he lacks. He doesn’t last three rounds with any of them. A 6’6” fighter with Manny’s speed, footwork, power that moves up proportionally, combinations, and work rate is unstoppable.

I rest my case.

[max baer]

my fav phrase in boxing is "it's a bar room brawl it's who wants it most"
i love when it comes to that!!!

[Hooded Terror]

The whole question of overrated/underrated stems back to many things. While I don't pretend to have all of the answers, I submit much of it has to do with interests, subjectivity and advertising/publicists/idolization.

Objectively, how can a cat such as Henry Armstrong by overrated? If the down and dirty research is done one soon learns that the overall playing field and ceiling of those times, relative to the arena of chosen profession, was a vastly different reality. And yet the guy could bounce two balls whilst juggling three items - with an eye patch on. Think about it and get back to me the next time a talented modern great claims to be the TBE.

[Slugfester]

Are we not supposed to use those terms now? Are all historical boxers rated perfectly now? Peoples' judgement and criteria differ. But it is a fact, some boxers are overrated, some underrated. Someone is the best best P4P fighter in the world, depending on one's criteria. There is no committee or research group that is going to settle these differences. This happens all across the spectrum of life. No need to be upset because it happens on boxing forums in heated arguments on issues that do not matter, when there are real issues to be concerned about, both in boxing and the larger world. It is okay to write a letter like this man did to discuss the qualm. Just don't expect to get anything settled by research.

One of the most overrated fighters today, in my view, is Joshua. I am baffled anyone could still still believe in him and even rate him highly on All Time lists.

[Bundana]

He's already been inducted into the HOF, on the second ballot.

Hard to argue that you can be a second ballot HOFer and also an ATG IMO.

Is there a single example of one? I don' think so.

I think, you're reading too much into this!

The reason he had to wait until the second year he was on the ballot, was because he was up against Wladimir Klitschko, Andre Ward and Floyd Mayweather (who all got in on their first try) the first year. An exceptional strong group, where Toney (not surprisingly) didn't make the top-3 in the voting.

In just about any other year, Toney would have been a first ballot inductee. This year, for example, the inductees will be Timothy Bradley, Carl Froch and Ráfael Marquez. It's hard to imagine, that Toney wouldn't have been voted in, if that trio had been his competition!

[IronDanHamza]

I think, you're reading too much into this!

The reason he had to wait until the second year he was on the ballot, was because he was up against Wladimir Klitschko, Andre Ward and Floyd Mayweather (who all got in on their first try) the first year. An exceptional strong group, where Toney (not surprisingly) didn't make the top-3 in the voting.

In just about any other year, Toney would have been a first ballot inductee. This year, for example, the inductees will be Timothy Bradley, Carl Froch and Ráfael Marquez. It's hard to imagine, that Toney wouldn't have been voted in, if that trio had been his competition!

I’m just dealing with the facts of the matter.

James Toney is not a first ballot Hall of Famer. That’s the fact of the matter.

There are certain fighters who get into the HOF on the first ballot no matter who is on there. James Toney isn’t one them.

[Slugfester]

I’m just dealing with the facts of the matter.

James Toney is not a first ballot Hall of Famer. That’s the fact of the matter.

There are certain fighters who get into the HOF on the first ballot no matter who is on there. James Toney isn’t one them.

You both make good points. I think Bradley and Froch only belong in a hall of fame as visitors, unless it is regional.

[IronDanHamza]

You both make good points. I think Bradley and Froch only belong in a hall of fame as visitors, unless it is regional.

I wouldn’t vote for Bradley but I would vote for Froch.