I give up - Overrated / Underrated is a term widely in use.

[IronDanHamza]

That's a long list . . . I'm replying to just some of them.

For whatever reasons, Toney's fights were bigger than most of the above. Why, I truly can't say.

Maybe it was the promoters/broadcasters. But Toney's fights garnered much attention.

Just the amount of banter we have on this board, as to his level of greatest, says there was something special going on.

If he gets in the HOF it's because Mancini got in; that's the only criteria that gets him in.

But when we think Toney, we think big fights?

He’s already been inducted into the HOF, on the second ballot.

Hard to argue that you can be a second ballot HOF’er and also an ATG IMO.

Is there a single example of one? I don’t think so.

[Willie Pep 229]

Or they watched his highlight video against Iran Barkley and some unranked bums and assume thatâs what his fights look like.

The fight with Iran Barkley in general is so incredibly overrated. #1 Barkley was well beyond his best years and #2 Barkley in his prime was a dead average fighter at best. Far from elite. But youâll have people on here using that fight as a measuring stick as to why he dominates or destroys great fighters.

Like Iâve said before, that never happened a single time in his career. In fact, thereâs not a single example of Toney âdominatingâ a top level fighter, let alone a great one.

Thereâs even some people on here over the years who actually genuinely believe that Toney has the capability of beating Roy Jones. Itâs beyond baffling.

At their best Jones was better. Proven!

But I suspect that Toney aged better and if they met at their career ends, Toney would take him.

Jones was too dependent on his athleticism and that doesn't age well in boxing. Toney had that ability to relax (sleep walk) through fights. That ages better.

[IronDanHamza]

At their best Jones was better. Proven!

But I suspect that Toney aged better and if they met at their career ends, Toney would take him.

Jones was too dependent on his athleticism and that doesn't age well in boxing. Toney had that ability to relax (sleep walk) through fights. That ages better.

Maybe when Jones was shot and that’s still a maybe.

But I’m talking about Prime Jones. There are actually quite a handful of people on this site alone that genuinely argue that Toney would knock him out in a rematch.

It’s incredibly bizarre.

[Willow The Wisp]

Maybe when Jones was shot and that’s still a maybe.

But I’m talking about Prime Jones. There are actually quite a handful of people on this site alone that genuinely argue that Toney would knock him out in a rematch.

It’s incredibly bizarre.

Well managed, well promoted. A carefully crafted career and a media connection can make all the difference in the world. We can't pretend that these things don't do almost as much to shape a fighter's career, fame and legacy as talent does. Was Rid**** Bowe in his 5 best outings really any better than, say; Greg Page? Not from where I sat carefully watching the two of them. But their respective careers and legacy as understood by the casual fans are worlds apart.

[max baer]

100% Agree with you. I think that the vast majority of the people posting here who view Toney as some sort of an All-time great level fighter saw him for the first time under Randy Couture's balls in a wrestling match.
Popular fighter, very well managed both by Jackie Kallen and then by Stan Hoffman and Dan Goossen.
Some great moves. On occasion he fought Great, but not (Not!) A "Great figher" in the genuine sense. I felt that within his era he was surrounded by better or equally good contemporaries such as Meldrick Taylor, Junior Jones, Dennis Andries, In-Chul Baek, Chris Eubank, Graciano Rocchigiani, Joey Gamache, Vinny Pazienza, Tracy Harris Patterson, Luisito Espinosa, Guty Espadas, Wilfredo Vasquez, Gerald McClellan, Henry Maske, Nigel Benn, Bobby Czyz, Steve Collins, Fabrice Tiozzo, Gianfranco Rosi, Ike Quartey, Julio César Vasquez, Frankie Randall, Jorge Castro, Reggie Johnson, Kevin Kelly, Vuyani Bungu, Oscar Larios, Michael Moorer, Sven Ottke, Stipe Drews, Dariusz Michalczewski, even Sun Kil Moon, etc., etc., etc., who are NOT in the IBHOF, and may never be.
Those are all fighters who represent the same level of overall "Greatness" earned by James Toney.
All very good fighters, to be SURE. Hall of Fame worthy? That depends on how many you want in there - Your criteria.

But James Tony more worthy than most of those guys??? NOPE.

OVERRATED

I was just thinking about this thread and what people have said and I agree with annoying words like that pound for pound etc but I reckon one of the main reasons certain fighers are ranked higher is because in their prime they crossed over from just boxing to world famous celebrity. James Toney used to mouth off hard and that gains him the worlds attention. To illustrate what I mean when benn and eubank dominated the middle weights in their day they were **** hot and full of charisma and people wanted to see them fight due to all their fighting talk yet eubank said that michael watson was the best of the 3 of us but watson was not box office frank warren said.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6CfsygSmYo
this is great and shows how men who can sell a fight are looked back upon as being great where as guys who were more quiet types often dont get much recall of historians. cept on here where people know their stuff well but do you get my point a bit?
Watch that clash of the titans about benn and eubanks rivalry it is very good i watched it many years ago.

[Willow The Wisp]

I was just thinking about this thread and what people have said and I agree with annoying words like that pound for pound etc but I reckon one of the main reasons certain fighers are ranked higher is because in their prime they crossed over from just boxing to world famous celebrity. James Toney used to mouth off hard and that gains him the worlds attention. To illustrate what I mean when benn and eubank dominated the middle weights in their day they were **** hot and full of charisma and people wanted to see them fight due to all their fighting talk yet eubank said that michael watson was the best of the 3 of us but watson was not box office frank warren said.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6CfsygSmYo
this is great and shows how men who can sell a fight are looked back upon as being great where as guys who were more quiet types often dont get much recall of historians. cept on here where people know their stuff well but do you get my point a bit?
Watch that clash of the titans about benn and eubanks rivalry it is very good i watched it many years ago.

I agree. Fame and talent can go in different directions and appeal, self promotion are things that can help. Arturo Gatti, Ray Mancini are just 2 hall of famers joining Toney who got a boost in the door by charisma.

[max baer]

I agree. Fame and talent can go in different directions and appeal, self promotion are things that can help. Arturo Gatti, Ray Mancini are just 2 hall of famers joining Toney who got a boost in the door by charisma.

i think it is similar in rock and roll hall of fame every (nearly every) band of note is now in it. I guess if we look at it from the standpoint of all the student bands and outfits all over the world that try to get big then there are not many but it is like obe's and mbe's in the uk they are handed out so much now it can cheapen what they confer to the wider public. in boxing it depends if we are considering the public impact that fighter has had or if it is purely on boxing skills. it could be based on how many great saturday nights they have given the fans or just purely on wins and skills. we now see the crossover with wwe and how the top fighters spend years negotiating terms as they build it to the size of the olympics or superbowl each title fight. thats my opinion anyway. willow you have reminded me of names i had forgotten till just now and i am looking them on youtube now, i spend many an evening watching classic fights on youtube and you have reminded me of names i had forgotten! dennis andries i now remember his fight with hearns where he kept going down. i watched that live as a kid but had forgot it till just now.

[Willow The Wisp]

Overrated

Ali as a p4p fighter
Tyson (completely)
Foreman's power
Frazier's being ATG

Underrated

Fury (completely)
Joshua's boxing ability
Wilder as a H2H fighter
Joyce as a H2H fighter

P4P is another of those overused terms I feel needs to be examined. I understand the intent of course. It refers to a fighter's accomplishments within his size range while assuming the bigger fighters would hold an advantage head to head. But when it comes to comparing a fighter's execution of the art, precisely; the term goes off the rails. But people do it anyway. .
Thats why its so unusual to see a heavyweight at the top of the P4P ratings. Its used as a leveling tool, but ends up as a consolidation prize for the little fellows who are masters of the art and have done great things against like sized opponents, but who'd get ragdolled against bigger men.
But from a stylistic standpoint, is it fair to imagine that a 6'3" 220 heavyweight like Ali could have the same reaction to gravity that a 5'6" 126 Willie Pep would have in performing the art? If Pep were put into a "Honey, I shrunk the kids" machine, and blown up to 6'3" 220, wouldn't he make Ali look slow? Sure he would. Its physics.
I digress.

I'd press for the logic behind selecting George Foreman's Power as "Overrated".
How is that possible?
29 years in international competition, 68 knockouts against career professionals and two stints as heavyweight champion of the world separated by 20 years?
About 177 billion members of our species have ever lived on earth and it is Very unlikely that a dozen of then could ever hit as hard as Big George Foreman. How can you overrate something like that????

[GhostofDempsey]

P4P is another of those overused terms I feel needs to be examined. I understand the intent of course. It refers to a fighter's accomplishments within his size range while assuming the bigger fighters would hold an advantage head to head. But when it comes to comparing a fighter's execution of the art, precisely; the term goes off the rails. But people do it anyway. .
Thats why its so unusual to see a heavyweight at the top of the P4P ratings. Its used as a leveling tool, but ends up as a consolidation prize for the little fellows who are masters of the art and have done great things against like sized opponents, but who'd get ragdolled against bigger men.
But from a stylistic standpoint, is it fair to imagine that a 6'3" 220 heavyweight like Ali could have the same reaction to gravity that a 5'6" 126 Willie Pep would have in performing the art? If Pep were put into a "Honey, I shrunk the kids" machine, and blown up to 6'3" 220, wouldn't he make Ali look slow? Sure he would. Its physics.
I digress.

I'd press for the logic behind selecting George Foreman's Power as "Overrated".
How is that possible?
29 years in international competition, 68 knockouts against career professionals and two stints as heavyweight champion of the world separated by 20 years?
About 177 billion members of our species have ever lived on earth and it is Very unlikely that a dozen of then could ever hit as hard as Big George Foreman. How can you overrate something like that????

I rarely consider a heavyweight for P4P. Most of their skills at HW don’t carry over well in lighter classes. Joshua and Wilder are one dimensional. But their size and power gives them a distinct advantage at HW in a weight class that often sees 30-40 pound weight disparages between opponents. Joshua carrying his skills down to welter weight never makes it as an amateur let alone a pro. Dempsey, Langford, Tunney, Louis, Ali, Holmes, Holyfield are examples of HW’s who I would consider for P4P discussions.

[Willie Pep 229]

I rarely consider a heavyweight for P4P. Most of their skills at HW don’t carry over well in lighter classes. Joshua and Wilder are one dimensional. But their size and power gives them a distinct advantage at HW in a weight class that often sees 30-40 pound weight disparages between opponents. Joshua carrying his skills down to welter weight never makes it as an amateur let alone a pro. Dempsey, Langford, Tunney, Louis, Ali, Holmes, Holyfield are examples of HW’s who I would consider for P4P discussions.

Funny but all of your list (except Louis) fought at a lower weight at the start of their careers.*

Fury, AJ, Wilder, Brothers K were always very big men.

*Ali as an amatuer.