Did Jack Johnson participate in fixed fights?

[Ivich]

I keep telling you the book is a compilation of his quotes from interviews and articles. They are in his words. On at least two occasions he claimed he went down, in one he said it was a slip. You can pretend you went back to 1906 in your time machine and seen it with your own two eyes, but you'll never know beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's unprovable, regardless of how many obscure articles you dig out of the archives.

We have the contemporary reports of the fight from ringside reporters,,or at least I have them.You dismissing them just eloquently proves my point entirely.You will unhesitatingly accept a comic purporting to be quotes from Johnson a comic with no author, no dates or time stamps,or places. but you wont accept verified ringside reports !
I can't spend any more time on you,that would make me as sad as you are.

[Bundana]

It's very difficult to determine, what realy went on all those years ago! I would suspect, that a lot of "sham" fights took place, where the boxers carried each other. With the often busy schedules, it would have been in everybody's best interest to go easy on each other - so they weren't injured or beat up too badly before their next fight. Which of course could be only a week or two away (if not just a few days!).

Here are some sham fights (all from 1920), where both boxers where thrown out for not making an honest fight of it:

01-01, Harry Wills vs Jack Thompson
01-08, Mickey Nelson vs Joe Colletti
02-13, Al Young vs Charles Doyle
02-16, Charlie Bergen vs Freddie Siegel
02-27, Mike Paulson vs Mel Stevenson
03-01, Harry Hulin vs W. O'Neill
03-18, Buddy Lane vs Billy Smith
03-20, Al Ross vs Frankie Daniels
03-24, Patsy Rubino vs Kid Kansas
03-28, Antoine Acencio vs Constant
04-05, George Shade vs **** Doolin
04-05, Frank Oldrich vs George Eagel
04-09, Larry Jones vs Dave Shade
04-15, Tommy Lang vs Eddie Stencil
04-26, Jack Stroud vs Pascal Colone
04-27, Frankie O'Neill vs Young Mahoney
04-28, Leo Patterson vs Eddie Carver
04-29, Babe Herman vs Charley Moy
05-03, Bill Reed vs Willie Keeler
06-10, Frankie Webb vs Leo Houck
07-04, Willie Doyle vs Bobby Ward
07-07, Del Howard vs Bud Taylor
07-08, Joey Reilly vs Frankie Pitcher
08-05, Frank Carbone vs Silent Martin
08-26, Battling Stanley vs Eddie Marks
08-30, Buddy Josephs vs Chick Hayes
09-08, Harry Wills vs Sam McVea
09-13, Pinky Lewis vs Battling Norfolk
10-14, Jack Davis vs Frank Oldrich
10-15, Steve Dalton vs Andy Palmer
10-25, Young Fyne vs Young Molson
10-25, John George vs Jimmy McDonough
11-01, George Sollis vs Jay Solomon
11-06, Calvin Respress vs Gunboat Smith
11-08, Charlie Cole vs Billy Hone
11-13, KO Jaffe vs Silent Martin
11-16, Jimmy Werner vs Eddie Brown
11-19, Jimmy Bradley vs Mickey O'Donnell
11-26, Tonto Lloyd vs Nipper Walsh
11-29, Cyclone Taylor vs Burrhead Scott

[Willie Pep 229]

It's very difficult to determine, what realy went on all those years ago! I would suspect, that a lot of "sham" fights took place, where the boxers carried each other. With the often busy schedules, it would have been in everybody's best interest to go easy on each other - so they weren't injured or beat up too badly before their next fight. Which of course could be only a week or two away (if not just a few days!).

Here are some sham fights (all from 1920), where both boxers where thrown out for not making an honest fight of it:

01-01, Harry Wills vs Jack Thompson
01-08, Mickey Nelson vs Joe Colletti
02-13, Al Young vs Charles Doyle
02-16, Charlie Bergen vs Freddie Siegel
02-27, Mike Paulson vs Mel Stevenson
03-01, Harry Hulin vs W. O'Neill
03-18, Buddy Lane vs Billy Smith
03-20, Al Ross vs Frankie Daniels
03-24, Patsy Rubino vs Kid Kansas
03-28, Antoine Acencio vs Constant
04-05, George Shade vs **** Doolin
04-05, Frank Oldrich vs George Eagel
04-09, Larry Jones vs Dave Shade
04-15, Tommy Lang vs Eddie Stencil
04-26, Jack Stroud vs Pascal Colone
04-27, Frankie O'Neill vs Young Mahoney
04-28, Leo Patterson vs Eddie Carver
04-29, Babe Herman vs Charley Moy
05-03, Bill Reed vs Willie Keeler
06-10, Frankie Webb vs Leo Houck
07-04, Willie Doyle vs Bobby Ward
07-07, Del Howard vs Bud Taylor
07-08, Joey Reilly vs Frankie Pitcher
08-05, Frank Carbone vs Silent Martin
08-26, Battling Stanley vs Eddie Marks
08-30, Buddy Josephs vs Chick Hayes
09-08, Harry Wills vs Sam McVea
09-13, Pinky Lewis vs Battling Norfolk
10-14, Jack Davis vs Frank Oldrich
10-15, Steve Dalton vs Andy Palmer
10-25, Young Fyne vs Young Molson
10-25, John George vs Jimmy McDonough
11-01, George Sollis vs Jay Solomon
11-06, Calvin Respress vs Gunboat Smith
11-08, Charlie Cole vs Billy Hone
11-13, KO Jaffe vs Silent Martin
11-16, Jimmy Werner vs Eddie Brown
11-19, Jimmy Bradley vs Mickey O'Donnell
11-26, Tonto Lloyd vs Nipper Walsh
11-29, Cyclone Taylor vs Burrhead Scott

Is ot possible that many of these fights took place in New York?

Are subsequent years ('20s) just as bad?

I am wondering because this is the first year of the NYSAC and I am wondering if they were trying to set a new standard.

[Willie Pep 229]

It's very difficult to determine, what realy went on all those years ago! I would suspect, that a lot of "sham" fights took place, where the boxers carried each other. With the often busy schedules, it would have been in everybody's best interest to go easy on each other - so they weren't injured or beat up too badly before their next fight. Which of course could be only a week or two away (if not just a few days!).

Here are some sham fights (all from 1920), where both boxers where thrown out for not making an honest fight of it:

01-01, Harry Wills vs Jack Thompson
01-08, Mickey Nelson vs Joe Colletti
02-13, Al Young vs Charles Doyle
02-16, Charlie Bergen vs Freddie Siegel
02-27, Mike Paulson vs Mel Stevenson
03-01, Harry Hulin vs W. O'Neill
03-18, Buddy Lane vs Billy Smith
03-20, Al Ross vs Frankie Daniels
03-24, Patsy Rubino vs Kid Kansas
03-28, Antoine Acencio vs Constant
04-05, George Shade vs **** Doolin
04-05, Frank Oldrich vs George Eagel
04-09, Larry Jones vs Dave Shade
04-15, Tommy Lang vs Eddie Stencil
04-26, Jack Stroud vs Pascal Colone
04-27, Frankie O'Neill vs Young Mahoney
04-28, Leo Patterson vs Eddie Carver
04-29, Babe Herman vs Charley Moy
05-03, Bill Reed vs Willie Keeler
06-10, Frankie Webb vs Leo Houck
07-04, Willie Doyle vs Bobby Ward
07-07, Del Howard vs Bud Taylor
07-08, Joey Reilly vs Frankie Pitcher
08-05, Frank Carbone vs Silent Martin
08-26, Battling Stanley vs Eddie Marks
08-30, Buddy Josephs vs Chick Hayes
09-08, Harry Wills vs Sam McVea
09-13, Pinky Lewis vs Battling Norfolk
10-14, Jack Davis vs Frank Oldrich
10-15, Steve Dalton vs Andy Palmer
10-25, Young Fyne vs Young Molson
10-25, John George vs Jimmy McDonough
11-01, George Sollis vs Jay Solomon
11-06, Calvin Respress vs Gunboat Smith
11-08, Charlie Cole vs Billy Hone
11-13, KO Jaffe vs Silent Martin
11-16, Jimmy Werner vs Eddie Brown
11-19, Jimmy Bradley vs Mickey O'Donnell
11-26, Tonto Lloyd vs Nipper Walsh
11-29, Cyclone Taylor vs Burrhead Scott

Check out the names on this Dempsey-Lester Johnson under card. The only one that looks to be an actual fighter is Kid Bacon.

But the promoter seems to have had a sense of humor when it came to making up names at ringside.

It's the "Youngs" vs. The "kids."

But it really makes one wonder about the quality of fights being offered.



Friday 14th July 1916

Harlem S.C., New York, N.Y.

John Lester Johnson D-NWS Jack Dempsey

Andy Cortez W-NWS Wee Wee Barton

Kid Happy W-NWS Young Paul

Kid Thompson W-NWS Kid West

Kid Charles W-NWS Young Burns

Kid Bacon W-NWS Young Frenchy


P.S. Do you think the "S.C." after Harlem stands for Sporting Club?

[Bundana]

Is ot possible that many of these fights took place in New York?

Are subsequent years ('20s) just as bad?

I am wondering because this is the first year of the NYSAC and I am wondering if they were trying to set a new standard.

I have not looked into how many of these fights took place in New York... but I will be looking forward to what you find.

Number of similar fights (that were declared NC, with both men thrown out for not fighting) for the rest of the 1920s:

1921 - 36
1922 - 56
1923 - 49
1924 - 42
1925 - 37
1926 - 48
1927 - 49
1928 - 45
1929 - 60

Or thereabouts! I can't guarantee, that I haven't overlooked a fight here and there.

Also, these include only the NC fights, where it on BoxRec specifically says, that both men were booted for lack of effort. There are lots of other NC fights, where no explanation is given - so if we knew the full details of every fight, these numbers could be much higher!

[Bundana]

P.S. Do you think the "S.C." after Harlem stands for Sporting Club?

Yes S.C. does indeed stand for Sporting Club, which can be seen here:
Jack Dempsey vs. John Lester Johnson - BoxRec

[QueensburyRules]

We have the contemporary reports of the fight from ringside reporters,,or at least I have them.You dismissing them just eloquently proves my point entirely.You will unhesitatingly accept a comic purporting to be quotes from Johnson a comic with no author, no dates or time stamps,or places. but you wont accept verified ringside reports !
I can't spend any more time on you,that would make me as sad as you are.

- - Must not know that some writers didn't even attend the fights they wrote about. They went out on the town(drunks) and then paid a friend for his details that they massaged and sent in to be published.

Then and now a lot more $$$ in fixing a fight than fighting legit, hence bad judging and and refereeing weekly.

[Willie Pep 229]

- - Must not know that some writers didn't even attend the fights they wrote about. They went out on the town(drunks) and then paid a friend for his details that they massaged and sent in to be published.

Then and now a lot more $$$ in fixing a fight than fighting legit, hence bad judging and and refereeing weekly.

"Bloody Bismarck is dead." John Bullen (Bulling).

A few pints and some darts; no sense in ruining a good afternoon with such a trivial event. So upon getting early word he sent his publisher a four word telegram and went back to pints and playing darts.

When he got back to the office his position at the Central News Agency was gone.

[joshuacity]

The sport is littered with questions from the time, for sure. No question that some fights were decided before the bell rang.

[Ivich]

- - Must not know that some writers didn't even attend the fights they wrote about. They went out on the town(drunks) and then paid a friend for his details that they massaged and sent in to be published.

Then and now a lot more $$$ in fixing a fight than fighting legit, hence bad judging and and refereeing weekly.

Of course the fights you are referring to would be the ones in which Johnson won and his performance was favourably reported on?
LOL!

Can we now expect a list of journalists names?Those that habitually did not attend the fights?

God Almighty it gets worse here!