Vitali Klitschko, the last great heavyweight

[Dr. Z]

Z, with respect and admiration, the dialog has moved beyond the point where we can hold up pointing to The Ring ratings inclusion as gospel. I alluded to why, to their history of pushing prospects up higher than they soon proved to belong, and I provided a list of obvious examples. I was and for those still living remain friends with Ring staffers and freelancers, and this is first hand musings. If you won't ignore my posts I won't ignore yours my friend. Vitali's management went after glossy records and higher than deserved rated opponents, and here we are looking back 15 years, lurching about in the dark falling for it hook, line and sinker.

I am using Vitali competiition of ranked ring magazine top ten fighters beaten as a benchmark. This is fair for any era. Ring magazine ratings are excellent and go back nearly 100 years!

They ranked men as early as the 1920's and we have seen the signigcant ones on film. It you think Jack Sharkey's competition and size of the men he fought decades would be in the top ten today, well then all I can say is that opinion ignores reality. I am not saying you think this way.

Vitali fought many men of all nationalities over 200 pounds and all but one man had losing record! His record of opponents beaten is great as is his round win to lost ratio, and his KO percentage.

But I am asking for ring magazine rated opponents beaten here from a guy who thinks he competition is poor.

[Dr. Z]

I just gave you the names. Prove me wrong. And it doesn't matter if they're smaller men, they were still heavyweights. Doesn't matter what division they may or may not be in today. You're already trying to move the goalposts back again. This seems to be your MO when someone disagrees with you.

You're opting out. Perhaps this discussion is too tough for you. I asked you to name 10 heavyweight fighters who had beaten more ring magazine opponents when they fought them. You can't prove it. I thought you knew boxing well. It is okay to say I am correct . Sharkey is not one of them. The names you came up with are wrong in other cases too. Vitali has beaten more ring magazine top ten opponents than others who you rate as better. No moving goal posts.

I'm sticking to the subject. You say " No mas." How ironic you will routinely say Vitali quit but not that other hall of fame fighters did, and do this same for this conversation.

We got it. No mas.

[Ivich]

Shown me 10 heavyweights with more wins vs. ranked ring magazine wins when they fought them. It's a simple question. All you did was come up with 12 names, many of whom are smaller men, cruiser weights today that would have little chance vs.Vitaly Klitschko. Anyone can do that! Are you opting out of this challenge already? Look like you are.

How big they were, or what their chances would be against Vitali is irrelevant, they were top ten Ring ranked.
Sharkey has ten such men Vitali does not! It's that simple!
YOU WILL NOT FIND TEN

[Dr. Z]

Schmeling
Carnera
Carnera
Stribling
Maloney
Maloney
Delaney
Wills
Renault
Risko
10 Wins

Wrong as usual! Jack Sharkey did not beat all or those men who were rated as top ten contenders when he fought them! Jonny Risko was not rated the top ten when he Jack Sharkey BEAT HIM.

[Ivich]

Wrong as usual! Jack Sharkey did not beat all or those men who were rated as top ten contenders when he fought them! Jonny Risko was not rated the top ten when he Jack Sharkey BEAT HIM.

Yes he did !


Here's another

Evander Holyfield


Rodrigues
Bowe
Bowe
Bowe
Thomas
Foreman
Tyson
Tyson
Moorer
Moorer
Douglas
Dokes
12 top ten Ring ranked opponents!

[Ivich]

Yes he did !
And yes he was!

Here's another

Evander Holyfield


Rodrigues
Bowe
Bowe
Bowe
Thomas
Foreman
Tyson
Tyson
Moorer
Moorer
Douglas
Dokes
12 top ten Ring ranked opponents!

And Another!

Mike Tyson

Smith
Thomas
Tucker
Biggs
Spinks
Williams
Ruddock
Ruddock
Bruno
Seldon

10 Ring ranked top ten opponents

[Ivich]

Wrong as usual! Jack Sharkey did not beat all or those men who were rated as top ten contenders when he fought them! Jonny Risko was not rated the top ten when he Jack Sharkey BEAT HIM.

Jack Sharkey beat
Maloney no4 in 27
Maloney no8 in 25
Gorman no 5 in 26
Wills no 2 in 26
Godfrey no5 in 26
Carnera no 3 in31
Schmeling Champion in 32
Delaney no7 in 28
9 top ten Ring ranked opponents!

[Ivich]

Jack Sharkey beat
Maloney no4 in 27
Maloney no8 in 25
Gorman no 5 in 26
Wills no 2 in 26
Godfrey no5 in 26
Carnera no 3 in31
Schmeling Champion in 32
Delaney no7 in 28
9 top ten Ring ranked opponents!

Now will you name your Ring ranked opponents that Vitali beat?

[JAB5239]

You're opting out. Perhaps this discussion is too tough for you. I asked you to name 10 heavyweight fighters who had beaten more ring magazine opponents when they fought them. You can't prove it. I thought you knew boxing well. It is okay to say I am correct . Sharkey is not one of them. The names you came up with are wrong in other cases too. Vitali has beaten more ring magazine top ten opponents than others who you rate as better. No moving goal posts.

I'm sticking to the subject. You say " No mas." How ironic you will routinely say Vitali quit but not that other hall of fame fighters did, and do this same for this conversation.

We got it. No mas.

Sorry kid, but you don't dictate when I do something or how, you don't make the rules. You try to, than you move the goalposts again. I work full time, am married with 4 kids and train in kickboxing and muaythai full time. A little nothing like you doesn't get a say in how I do things. Why aren't you putting any work in if you're so confident? How many top 10 ring ranked fighter has Vittles beaten, and where does he rank in the top 10 you claim he is in?

[Willow The Wisp]

I am using Vitali competiition of ranked ring magazine top ten fighters beaten as a benchmark. This is fair for any era. Ring magazine ratings are excellent and go back nearly 100 years!

They ranked men as early as the 1920's and we have seen the signigcant ones on film. It you think Jack Sharkey's competition and size of the men he fought decades would be in the top ten today, well then all I can say is that opinion ignores reality. I am not saying you think this way.

Vitali fought many men of all nationalities over 200 pounds and all but one man had losing record! His record of opponents beaten is great as is his round win to lost ratio, and his KO percentage.

But I am asking for ring magazine rated opponents beaten here from a guy who thinks he competition is poor.

I understand. I believe that you and others should support and argue for any fighter or concept you wish. It's simply a means of expressing an opinion and fleshing out facts. You won't see me debating much here, as I have no interest in convincing others to leave their comfort zone to join me in my way of thinking, and I already know the difference between when I know something conclusively from when I require further information.
So no debates from me, and you look to have your plate full anyway with Jabs and Ivich, but simply for your (and our) consideration......

I would say that Jack Sharkey, whom I met many years ago and admire, can count among his career opponents Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Harry Wills, George Godfrey, Young Stribling, Tony Scucco, Max Schmeling, Jack Delaney, Jack Renault and Jimmy Maloney; and weight increases notwithstanding I select that group OVER Vitali opponents and other Vitali-era Ring top teners like Fres Oquendo, Kirk Johnson, Monte Barrett, fat James Toney, Calvin Brock, Serguei Lyakhovich, Vladimir Verchis, Alexander Dimitrenko, Eddie Chambers, Denis Boytsov, Robert Helenius, Larry Donald, Danny Williams, Juan Carlos Gomez, Derek Chisora, Herbie Hide, Kirk Johnson, Odlanier Solis, Manuel Charr, Timo Hoffman, Orlin Norris, Vaughn Bean, Kingpin Johnson, Albert Sosnowski, Obed Sullivan, Ed Mahone, Mario Schiesser, ****y Ryan, Ross Puritty, Julius Francis and Marcus Rhode.
Easy, in fact.
If the size thing is an Issue, I'd reference Chris Byrd, or this revealing beat-down:

https://********/ehLw61IsSMg