Vitali Klitschko, the last great heavyweight

[Ben Bolt]

Why take credit away from Vitali in these days?

He chose not to abandon his people, but is still there in the
middle of Kyiv, challenging his most dangerous foe ever, *****.

[JAB5239]

Louis
Ali
Tyson
Patterson
Wlad
Holmes
Lewis
Holyfield
Foreman
Charles
Marciano
Sharkey

There are 12 fighters who beat more Ring rated fighters than Vits. Prove me wrong!!

[Nash out]

Vitali beat nobody and gets his entire rep from being knocked out in 6-7 rounds by a completely finished and out of shape Lewis. Vitali got knocked out, yes, knocked out by Byrd, a non-puncher. It was his blows that destroyed Vitali's shoulder.

That night Vitali told his brother, Wlad, "I can not beat this man", to allow him to swerve the rematch he asked Wlad to take the fight, like Carl Froch, in his own words "Swerved Golovkin", "will you beat him for me, Wlad?" Wlad stepped up and hammered Bryd like he was Sasha Grey's throat. There are levels to this game and prime Wlad was better than prime Vitali. Nash out

[JAB5239]

Why take credit away from Vitali in these days?

He chose not to abandon his people, but is still there in the
middle of Kyiv, challenging his most dangerous foe ever, *****.

No one is saying he wasn't a tough guy or a true patriot for his country. No one is saying he isn't an outstanding role model. But I will keep saying his resume wasn't very good and his brother did the real heavy lifting in the division.

[Willow The Wisp]

Why take credit away from Vitali in these days?

He chose not to abandon his people, but is still there in the
middle of Kyiv, challenging his most dangerous foe ever, *****.

I am with you. Both brothers are heroes to their people and as military underdogs who chose to stay and fight with their countrymen at a very very high risk to their lives, when their considerable financial resources would have allowed them to live like kings anywhere else in the world; they are both MEN in the most real sense possible. 100% Great Post Ben. As an aside, speaking strictly about Boxing; they are both hall of fame level, which is as high as you can get in combat sports. Boxing isn't the combat sport with the widest range of techniques allowed by the rules, but for history, money, fame and world acclaim, it's the greatest challenge by light years for any combat sport athlete. A mountain that both brothers have gotten to the top of!

[Willow The Wisp]

Let's unpack the body of work....

Note:
Opponents are classified by their ability at the time of the fight with the fighters being reviewed (Vitali, in this case), but that classification is Informed by past AND subsequent performances as well. The Reason for that approach is that the Ring Ratings have a very long history of over-ranking prospective contenders who shortly later show that they should never have been so highly ranked. This historically contrasts to the Victory Sports Stanley Weston publication rankings, that typically gave greater value to proven track records in their ratings compilation approach than the committee did at The Ring. Finding examples of this methodology contrast a simple errand).

Vitali Klitschko's career best opponents:
Career: 1996 - 2012. Record: 45-2-0 (41)

A - Elite Class = 3 (1 Win)
Lennox Lewis, 40-2-1. 2003. *** LOSS ***
Chris Byrd, 31-1-0. 2000. *** LOSS ***
Corrie Sanders, 39-2-0. 2004

B - Contender Class = 8
Tomaz Adamek, 44-1-0. 2011
Chris Arreola, 27-0-0. 2009
Samuel Peter, 30-1-0. 2008
Shannon Briggs, 51-5-1. 2010. (Older)
Larry Donald, 39-2-2. 2002
Danny Williams, 32-3-0. 2004
Juan Carlos Gomez, 44-1-0. 2009
Derek Chisora, 15-2-0. 2012

C - Fringe Contender Class = 7
Herbie Hide, 31-1-0. 1999
Kirk Johnson, 34-1-1. 2003
Odlanier Solis, 17-0-0. 2011
Manuel Charr, 21-0-0. 2012
Timo Hoffman, 22-0-0. 2000
Orlin Norris, 51-6-0. 2001. (Older)
Vaughn Bean, 42-2-0. 2002

D - Gatekeeper/Prospect Class = 9
Kingpin Johnson, 22-0-1. 2009
Albert Sosnowski, 45-2-1. 2010
Obed Sullivan, 34-5-1. 1999
Ed Mahone, 21-1-2. 1999
Mario Schiesser, 36-3-1. 1998
****y Ryan, 46-3-0. 1998
Ross Puritty, 28-14-3. 2001
Julius Francis, 18-3-0. 1998
Marcus Rhode, 20-7-0. 1998

E - Sub - Top 50 Class and below:
20 Opponents

Next, we can do another top Heavyweight and see where Vitali really stacks up, in Real Measure, against the likes of Patterson, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Briggs, Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko, Fury, Wilder, Joshua, Ruiz Jr. And Usyk, for example.
Very doable for adults who can accept that the classifications determination would be evenly applied, so that the thread wouldn't veer off into minutiaville where we argue over important questions like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

.......and a friendly and respectful reminder for this pub to remain civil.

Do Larry Holmes....

Larry Holmes
Career: 1973 - 2002. Record: 69-6-0 (44)

A - Elite Class = 9. (3 Losses, all past prime)
Mike Tyson, 32-0-0. 1988. *** LOSS ***
Evander Holyfield, 27-0-0. 1992. *** LOSS ***
Tim Witherspoon, 15-0-0. 1983
Gerry Cooney, 25-0-0. 1982
Ken Norton, 40-4-0. 1978.
Earnie Shavers, 54-6-1. 1978
Earnie Shavers II, 59-7-1. 1979
Mike Weaver, 19-8-0. 1979
Michael Spinks II, 28-0-0. 1986. *** LOSS ***

B - Contender Class = 14
Bonecrusher Smith, 14-1-0. 1984
Michael Spinks, 27-0-0. 1985. *** LOSS ***
Trevor Berbick, 18-1-1. 1981
Ray Mercer, 18-0-0. 1992
Oliver McCall, 25-5-0. 1995. *** LOSS ***
Carl The Truth Williams, 16-0-0. 1985
Renaldo Snipes, 22-0-0. 1981
Muhammad Ali, 56-3-0. 1980. (Very Old)
Leroy Jones, 24-0-1. 1980
Leon Spinks, 10-2-2. 1981
Randall Tex Cobb, 20-2-0. 1982
Scott LeDoux, 26-8-4. 1980
David Bey, 14-0-0. 1985
Osvaldo Ocasio, 13-0-0. 1979

C - Fringe Contender Class = 7
Lucien Rodriguez, 35-7-1. 1983
Marvis Frazier, 10-0-0. 1983
Alfredo Evangelista, 22-3-1. 1978
Roy Williams, 23-4-0. 1976
Lorenzo Zanon, 25-4-2. 1980
Scott Frank, 20-0-1. 1983
Brian Nielsen, 31-0-0. 1997. *** LOSS ***

D - Gatekeeper/Prospect Class = 6
Young Sanford Houpe, 12-1-0. 1977
Robney Bobick, 34-5-0. 1975
Dale Ibar Arrington, 22-3-1. 1977
Eric Butterbean Esch, 65-2-3. 2002
Tom Prater, 17-3-1. 1977
Jerry Judge, 14-3-1. 1973

E - Sub - Top 50 Class and below:
39 Opponents



Let's Compare:


VITALI. HOLMES
Record 45-2-0 69-6-0
A - Elite 3. 9
Rec in Prime v. Elite. 1-2. 6-0
B - Contender. 8. 14
C - Fringe Contender 7. 7
D - Gatekeeper/Prospt. 9. 6
E - Sub - <Top 50. 20. 39
Total Fights. 47. 75

Holmes had a longer career and 28 more fights, of course, and 19 more fights against sub # 50 professionals.
But where we see the biggest and most meaningful differences between the two is in the considerably higher number of Elite and Contender Class opponents faced by Larry Holmes. In addition, it is highly instructive to note and take in the STARK difference in the two Hall-of-Famers success rate vs. Elite class opponents while they were in their respective primes.


If I were to snap to attention by this revelation, because I was a great Vitali supporter or because I was trying to sell an idea having little merit, I would say something trite, if I were ******, or; I would run back to the listings and hurriedly try to assemble a case as to why, for example; Earnie Shavers circa 1978 gets to be elite and Chris Arreola circa 2009 misses the cut.
But if I'm going that latter route, I'd better be ready.
We know a creative poster like QueensburyRules doesn't care about any of that come ready stuff, of course.
But come he shall...lol.

[Ben Bolt]

No one is saying he isn't an outstanding role model.

My post was not directed at you.

It's just that my admiration for the two brothers has grown because of the war. They still fight,
but now with their lives on the line. They could afford to flee Ukraine, they didn't.

As reports read today, there is no longer any safe spots in Ukraine. *****'s bombs reach everywhere.
I sincerly hope Vitali will emerge a winner in the most important fight of his career.

[JAB5239]

My post was not directed at you.

It's just that my admiration for the two brothers has grown because of the war. They still fight,
but now with their lives on the line. They could afford to flee Ukraine, they didn't.

As reports read today, there is no longer any safe spots in Ukraine. *****'s bombs reach everywhere.
I sincerly hope Vitali will emerge a winner in the most important fight of his career.

As do i. You don't have to be a fan of the boxers to respect the men. Both Klitschko brothers are exemplary people.

[Ivich]

I don't wish anyone for go to hell , but people some people well they get what they deserve. I am not your judge. You told numerous lies, admit to giving money to a group that does terrorism, joined a cult of possible d@vil worship among other things. Do you still claim 137 IQ You know what you've done. Liar, liar. Be silent! Hold your forked tongue behind you cheek.

To answer your false charges.I gave money to the ANC when Nelson Mandela was at its head and I am proud to have done so,I find apartheid almost as abhorrent as I find you.
I am a Free Mason as were about 20 of your presidents including;
Ford
Washington
Taft
Polk
FDR
Teddy Roosevelt
Truman
LBJ
Andy Jackson
Andrew Johnson
Other luminaries include
Benjamin Franklin
Mark Twain
Admiral Nelson
Sugar Ray Robinson
Count Basie
Audie Murphy
Douglas MacArthur
Jack Dempsey
George C Marshall
Omar Bradley
Jack Johnson
Mendelsson
Liszt
Pushkin
Mozart
John Wayne
Booker T Washington
Irving Berlin
Clark Gable
7Medal Of Honor Winners
6 Victoria Cross Holders
17 Congressman
Sibelius
John Glenn
Buzz Aldrin
John Steinbeck
You are on record as saying Masons are *****philes and devil worshippers.
Which of the smattering of names I've provided were *****philes and devil worshippers?
Has anyone told you,that you are a ****ing lunatic?

[Ivich]

Why take credit away from Vitali in these days?

He chose not to abandon his people, but is still there in the
middle of Kyiv, challenging his most dangerous foe ever, *****.

We are focusing on his boxing record,not his record as a man and politician.
I have great respect for both Klits and their activities in defence of their country,that does not in any way change his boxing resume.