Lightweight GOAT, just a 2 horse race?

[Willie Pep 229]

A duck would be if a seasoned and prime Whitaker balked at fighting an all time great Chavez. Up to that point Pea's best win was against Mayweather who was 9-4 having been stopped 3 times since Whitaker turned pro. Ramirez was the right move in his progression as a top level fighter. Unfortunately Chavez moved up to 140 (I don't remember if he had weight issues or was chasing more title in another weight class) which deprived us of this fight for a few more years. Honestly I don't fault either man and think the fight happened when it should have happened. P4p #1 vs p4p #2.

I don't - an ATG is great. He had a shot at unifying the LlW title and he didn't want it.

See, my point always is, there is no such thing as a duck. A fighter has a finite number of fights to make the most money, which means taking the right fight at the right time.

But too often on this forum posters play the interpretation both ways. When they don t like the guy, it's a duck; when they like him, there are always good reasons why he didn't.

Smart moves and ducking are the same thing.

P.S. No I don't agree it was the right time. The timing and weight was all to Whitaker's favor. Chavez started at Jr. LW. The "right time" for Chavez was LW 1988, not WW in 1993. The "right time" counts for both fighters.

[QueensburyRules]

The fact that fight was a robbery is almost universally acknowledged

Virtually nobody agrees with that shxt

http://www.espn.com/sports/boxing/ph...sial-decisions

https://www.badlefthook.com/2022/11/9/23449548/unsung-20th-century-fights-jose-luis-ramirez-vs-pernell-whitaker-boxing-news-2022

https://www.ringtv.com/575141-sweet-pea-at-his-sweetest-the-30-year-anniversary-of-pernell-whitaker-jose-luis-ramirez-2/

https://ringsidereport.com/?p=71205

- - You citing American media circle of drunks bucking each other on their shared ignorance is like being a ********** or ********. It's all you'll ever be. The world and Universe are infinitely larger and more truthful as to actual realities.

You been reducing American boxing to a carney sideshow, ie the biggest financial fight in history rigged with the hamhanded oversight of a gaggle of two bit thugs accidentally burrowing a hole into a hidden Fort Knox depository instead of a tyny local bank.

Pea/Ramirez 1 was an internationally officiated fight outside America, ie the only Americans there were peashooter fight team and broadcasters reading from the corporate script.

I invite U ignos to review the Camacho clowning and dismantling of Ramirez a couple years earlier to compare with the poor peashooter gruel where he starts flash and ends pulling every foul possible to commit to survive the final bell, beaching hisself like a whale in his corner of refuge.

[JAB5239]

I don't - an ATG is great. He had a shot at unifying the LlW title and he didn't want it.

See, my point always is, there is no such thing as a duck. A fighter has a finite number of fights to make the most money, which means taking the right fight at the right time.

But too often on this forum posters play the interpretation both ways. When they don t like the guy, it's a duck; when they like him, there are always good reasons why he didn't.

Smart moves and ducking are the same thing.

P.S. No I don't agree it was the right time. The timing and weight was all to Whitaker's favor. Chavez started at Jr. LW. The "right time" for Chavez was LW 1988, not WW in 1993. The "right time" counts for both fighters.

Why was that the right time? Chavez was only two years older, an inch and a half taller, vastly more experienced. If you go back and look at Chavez weight while Whitaker was in the Olympics you will find they were both around the same size at the same points in time. Hence there was never any advantage for Whitaker. If the fight had happened at lightweight when you say it was first proposed Chavez has in immeasurable amount more of professional experience against world class fighters than Pea. It's almost like Lomachenko challenging Salido so early in his career, except Salido wasn't nearly as good as Chavez.

Incidentally, Lomachenko's first fight was against a Jose Luis Ramirez.

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

I think it’s definitively Duran. He was a monster at Lightweight. If we’re taking H2H there’s no way I see Benny Leonard beating Duran. I doubt he hears the final bell tbh.

If we’re comparing resumes then it’s probably more debatable but I’ve never seen a lightweight capable of beating Duran H2H.

[JAB5239]

I think it’s definitively Duran. He was a monster at Lightweight. If we’re taking H2H there’s no way I see Benny Leonard beating Duran. I doubt he hears the final bell tbh.

If we’re comparing resumes then it’s probably more debatable but I’ve never seen a lightweight capable of beating Duran H2H.

I could never say either of these guys wins definitely if the fought. Duran is all you say he is, but Leonard was just as incredible and fought better comp. He also only lost by knockout when he was still just a teenager or in his last fight against all time great McLarnin. I'm not saying I would bet on Leonard, but I wouldn't bet against him either. Both along with Joe Gans are the cream of the crop at lightweight.

[Ivich]

Gans and Armstrong agree with you? I suspect they never even heard of Wittaker.

On a serious note Ivch did mention Ike Williams above. It is hard to place him, too many claimed he was forced to tank fights, he claimed he was forced to tank fights, but I don't trust old fighters who claim they lost because of "pressure." Not that it didn't happen but because it is too common an excuse, especially among Black fighters.

The period between when Ross moved up to WW, and Ortiz and Laguna had not yet appeared I would argue Williams was the best out there.

Often it took a WW to beat him.

Williams was managed by Carbo and Palermo.

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

I could never say either of these guys wins definitely if the fought. Duran is all you say he is, but Leonard was just as incredible and fought better comp. He also only lost by knockout when he was still just a teenager or in his last fight against all time great McLarnin. I'm not saying I would bet on Leonard, but I wouldn't bet against him either. Both along with Joe Gans are the cream of the crop at lightweight.

Leonard isn’t big enough to keep Duran off him IMO. I think Duran beats him convincingly either by UD or late stoppage. Duran was able to bully Middleweights man. When Duran was fully dedicated and still had that hunger that he arguably lost after the Ray Leonard win, he was irrepressible.

I’m not trying to dismiss Leonard he’s a all time great in his own right and true pioneer of the sport along with guys like Gene Tunney and in later years Willie Pep in popularising a style based on being more defensively aware and boxing off the back foot using lateral movement. However, there’s no way he beats Duran IMO. If they fought 10 times I think Duran wins all 10.

[Ivich]

It's hard to overlook Beau Jack in this discussion. Solid wins at LW that include Armstrong, Montgomery, Williams, Zivic, Angott, Zurita, Davis, Jenkins, and Janiro. If we are ranking greatest lightweights by what they accomplished at 135, he ranks right up there in the top 5.

Jack fought Williams 4 times
1st fight lost by tko
2nd fight lost by split dec
3rd fight draw
4th fight rtd
= No wins for Jack.

[JAB5239]

Leonard isn’t big enough to keep Duran off him IMO. I think Duran beats him convincingly either by UD or late stoppage. Duran was able to bully Middleweights man. When Duran was fully dedicated and still had that hunger that he arguably lost after the Ray Leonard win, he was irrepressible.

I’m not trying to dismiss Leonard he’s a all time great in his own right and true pioneer of the sport along with guys like Gene Tunney and in later years Willie Pep in popularising a style based on being more defensively aware and boxing off the back foot using lateral movement. However, there’s no way he beats Duran IMO. If they fought 10 times I think Duran wins all 10.

I'm not going against your opinion by any means. I'm just not as cut and dry about it. Ray Arcel said Leonard was the best fighter he ever trained, the most intelligent. He teeters on picking who was better p4p, Leonard or Robinson. Who knows, maybe Leonard catches the Duran who lost to DeJesus in '72. That wasn't Durun in his absolute prime, but DeJesus was no Benny Leonard either. Would be an interesting fight to say the least. To many variables for me personally to just say one wins easily over the other.

[Willie Pep 229]

Williams was managed by Carbo and Palermo.

Blinky yes - Frankie Carbo he had no official connection to anything/anybody. Lol!

Blinky was Liston's manager. He did OK!