Lightweight GOAT, just a 2 horse race?

[QueensburyRules]

Badly exposed by who?

Ramirez?

That fight's considered one of the worst robberies of all-time.

- - U running Jabbywonky close for the dummy of the year, DOY.

[Anthony342]

The article also goes on to say "Whitaker-Ramirez 2 would not only have the IBF title at stake. Additionally, The Ring Magazine championship and the WBC title would be on the line because Chavez had recently moved north to dethrone WBC 140-pound titleholder Roger Mayweather." So Chavez had already gone to 140 while Whitaker had unfinished business against Ramirez. In 1990 JCC had the Taylor fight which many thought was fixed with Steele stopping the contest with two seconds left. I'm not one of those people by the way. But maybe Whitakers camp thought the same could happen to them. I wouldn't say it was a duck myself though. Whitaker was a 16 fight novice no matter how good he was. Chavez had a ton more experience with world class professional boxers at that point. Besides the unfinished business with Ramirez and The Chavez move to 140, I'd wager the Whitaker camp wanted him to get more experience before fighting such a seasoned assassin. Would you call that a duck?

Hell no. Whitaker didn't duck anybody. And yeah, that fight wasn't fixed so much as Steele just screwed up. As was pointed out here before, he didn't get Chavez to a neutral corner after the knockdown. And Taylor messed up too but not responding to the ref when being asked if he was okay. The judges seemed to be biased for Chavez though, as evidenced by the Whitaker fight and later when it took a knockdown and 2 point deductions, by Steele ironically, to get Frankie Randall the nod in their first fight. Never should've been that close. It's like in the NBA when the refs call more fouls for superstar players to get them more free throws and let them get away with committing more fouls. I believe refs even admitted as such in an investigation a few years back. Nice they finally admitted it. That and the crappy rules changes made me stop watching the NBA. At least with fighting, one can level the playing field with a knockout. Word has it that Aaron Pryor needed a stoppage to beat Alexis Arguello in their first fight. Not sure if that's true, but wouldn't surprise me, given Arguello's popularity at the time.

[QueensburyRules]

Word has it that Aaron Pryor needed a stoppage to beat Alexis Arguello in their first fight. Not sure if that's true, but wouldn't surprise me, given Arguello's popularity at the time.

- - Split Decision for Aaron at the time of the scoring, the best fight of ebb and flow adjustments of all time greats as it gets.

Super Light 15 Rounds Box-pro

referee 124 Stanley Christodoulou 127 scorecard judges scorecard 127 Ken Morita 125 124 Ove Ovesen 127

[Willie Pep 229]

The article also goes on to say "Whitaker-Ramirez 2 would not only have the IBF title at stake. Additionally, The Ring Magazine championship and the WBC title would be on the line because Chavez had recently moved north to dethrone WBC 140-pound titleholder Roger Mayweather." So Chavez had already gone to 140 while Whitaker had unfinished business against Ramirez. In 1990 JCC had the Taylor fight which many thought was fixed with Steele stopping the contest with two seconds left. I'm not one of those people by the way. But maybe Whitakers camp thought the same could happen to them. I wouldn't say it was a duck myself though. Whitaker was a 16 fight novice no matter how good he was. Chavez had a ton more experience with world class professional boxers at that point. Besides the unfinished business with Ramirez and The Chavez move to 140, I'd wager the Whitaker camp wanted him to get more experience before fighting such a seasoned assassin. Would you call that a duck?

No that doesn't work. You are talking about the wrong fight. This is about the first fight in March 1988. Whitaker was not champion yet and the WBC title was at risk, with the opportunity to fight a unification bout with Chavez (WBA) at 135 LW.

Yes the article is about Whitaker-Ramirez II but the quote is about the first fight where you claim Whitaker was jobbed.

If you look you will see that Ramirez and Chavez do meet at 135 just 7 months after Ramirez beats Whitaker in 1988. That's the fight I am suggesting Duva ducked Chavez. That fight is for the WBC/WBA titles. (October 1988.)

That's the fight Whitaker could have had but wouldn't commit to.

The second Whitaker-Ramirez fight takes place in August '89 (and is irrelevant to my point.) That fight is contested for the IBF and vacant WBC titles. That's when Chavez moved up. (Chavez moved to 140 in 1989 not 1988.)

The LW fight was there in 1988. Whitaker/Duva refused to commit; Ramirez did in fact take that WBC/WBA unification fight with Chavez at 135 and lost a TD.

[JAB5239]

No that doesn't work. You are talking about the wrong fight. This is about the first fight in March 1988. Whitaker was not champion yet and the WBC title was at risk, with the opportunity to fight a unification bout with Chavez (WBA) at 135 LW.

Yes the article is about Whitaker-Ramirez II but the quote is about the first fight where you claim Whitaker was jobbed.

If you look you will see that Ramirez and Chavez do meet at 135 just 7 months after Ramirez beats Whitaker in 1988. That's the fight I am suggesting Duva ducked Chavez. That fight is for the WBC/WBA titles. (October 1988.)

That's the fight Whitaker could have had but wouldn't commit to.

The second Whitaker-Ramirez fight takes place in August '89 (and is irrelevant to my point.) That fight is contested for the IBF and vacant WBC titles. That's when Chavez moved up. (Chavez moved to 140 in 1989 not 1988.)

The LW fight was there in 1988. Whitaker/Duva refused to commit; Ramirez did in fact take that WBC/WBA unification fight with Chavez at 135 and lost a TD.

So we're talking about what, a 14 or 15 fight novice against a fighter already considered an all time great? I wouldn't call that a duck as much as I would good management. That's just my opinion of course.

[Willie Pep 229]

So we're talking about what, a 14 or 15 fight novice against a fighter already considered an all time great? I wouldn't call that a duck as much as I would good management. That's just my opinion of course.

Well Duva thought him good enough to fight for the WBC title against Rameriz but not good enough to committ to Chavez and a unification fight.

So he's experienced enough for a title shot but not a unification fight? That sounds an awful lot like a Chavez duck to me.

What I find interesting is that Duva would not sign the unification deal (before Ramirez I, protecting Whitaker from Chavez) but then didn't hesitate to throw M. Taylor to the lion at 140.

Looks to me like Duva was protecting Whitaker but didn't seem too concerned with Taylor's career.

Duva also abused Johnny Bumpus throwing him in the ring when he was well past it.

But with Whitaker, it looks like he was special, protected.

Anyway your argument doesn't work, if Whitaker is good enough to fight for the WBC title, he's good enough to fight for the WBA title, unless of course that WBA title is held by Chavez. Then Duva wanted no part of it!

Walks like a . . .

[JAB5239]

Well Duva thought him good enough to fight for the WBC title against Rameriz but not good enough to committ to Chavez and a unification fight.

So he's experienced enough for a title shot but not a unification fight? That sounds an awful lot like a Chavez duck to me.

What I find interesting is that Duva would not sign the unification deal (before Ramirez I, protecting Whitaker from Chavez) but then didn't hesitate to throw M. Taylor to the lion at 140.

Looks to me like Duva was protecting Whitaker but didn't seem too concerned with Taylor's career.

Duva also abused Johnny Bumpus throwing him in the ring when he was well past it.

But with Whitaker, it looks like he was special, protected.

Anyway your argument doesn't work, if Whitaker is good enough to fight for the WBC title, he's good enough to fight for the WBA title, unless of course that WBA title is held by Chavez. Then Duva wanted no part of it!

Walks like a . . .

No, not at all. Ramirez was at the end of his career. Chavez was in his absolute prime. Ramirez a good test to get a 14 or 15 fight Pea's championship feet wet. JCC wasn't going anywhere.

[Willie Pep 229]

No, not at all. Ramirez was at the end of his career. Chavez was in his absolute prime. Ramirez a good test to get a 14 or 15 fight Pea's championship feet wet. JCC wasn't going anywhere.

OK I agree with that completely. A smart move by Duva, because yea, Chavez would have beaten him.

So when is it a smart move and when is it a duck?

Are they the same thing?

[JAB5239]

OK I agree with that completely. A smart move by Duva, because yea, Chavez would have beaten him.

So when is it a smart move and when is it a duck?

Are they the same thing?

A duck would be if a seasoned and prime Whitaker balked at fighting an all time great Chavez. Up to that point Pea's best win was against Mayweather who was 9-4 having been stopped 3 times since Whitaker turned pro. Ramirez was the right move in his progression as a top level fighter. Unfortunately Chavez moved up to 140 (I don't remember if he had weight issues or was chasing more title in another weight class) which deprived us of this fight for a few more years. Honestly I don't fault either man and think the fight happened when it should have happened. P4p #1 vs p4p #2.

[The D3vil]

- - U running Jabbywonky close for the dummy of the year, DOY.

The fact that fight was a robbery is almost universally acknowledged

Virtually nobody agrees with that shxt

http://www.espn.com/sports/boxing/ph...sial-decisions

https://www.badlefthook.com/2022/11/9/23449548/unsung-20th-century-fights-jose-luis-ramirez-vs-pernell-whitaker-boxing-news-2022

https://www.ringtv.com/575141-sweet-pea-at-his-sweetest-the-30-year-anniversary-of-pernell-whitaker-jose-luis-ramirez-2/

https://ringsidereport.com/?p=71205