Langford vs Greb

[QueensburyRules]

Oh, and spinning or turning a fighter is nothing new nor illegal in boxing. It's actually one of the first things I remember being taught when I started boxing.

- - Hector Camacho was warned repeatedly in his early days for doing that, but perhaps instead actually being warned against slapping the offended opponent in his fanny.

He'd also just spring behind them for a slap, and when they turned around, he was back in his original front position ready to pop them when they turned back.

Humiliation by unrivaled showboating making Pea look like a peashooter.

U moan about Greb and Sam not fighting, but Pea was definitely guided away from the much faster, quicker Camacho who had vastly better results vs Jose Luis Ramirez the Champion than did Pea who took a beating their first fight.

[Willie Pep 229]

I have provided fighter testimonial saying Greb wasn't dirty, so what's you point. There are degrees to being a dirty fighter. According to men who shared the ring with him he wasn't intentionally dirty. When he was it was because he was done dirty first. You seem to have an overwhelming need for this to be an absolute. Thing is, it won't be without film.

Why would me calling Wlad dirty anger you? As far as I'm concerned he was a dirty fighter. I mean as long as you don't see a gray area than why should I? He held and leaned on opponents excessively in nearly every fight after the first Brewster fight. This is a fact. You can't have your cake and eat it to. Going by your logic Wlad was a dirty fighter. You have no room for different degrees or levels of being dirty.

Greb was no Saint. But you show nothing that trumps what the men who shared the ring with him had to say. Personally I don't care if he was dirty or not. The man was great. Ask any historian. Even the IBHOF says so!!

How do you view Ali's holding? E.g. Ali-Frazier II.

Ali neutralized Frazier's attacks by grabbing the back of his head and pulling him into his chest. Over and over again.

I would consider that inappropriate behavior but not necessarily dirty fighting.

Is there a difference between dirty fighting and constant holding as a tactic? Or is that unto itself dirty fighting. **

Personally I found Wald just plain boring to watch. I don't care how long he held the title he was bad for the fight game.

You guys are all boxing purists --> counting punches, evaluating styles, Etc. I get that.

But to me it is important that prize fighting be entertaining as well so the casual fan is willing to pop for the PPV ticket, or the game won't last much longer; poking, grabbing, leaning and then waiting for the referee to yell break, and then repeating the action isn't a mark of greatness. Plus as I said, it's bad for the game.

So is a repeated use of that tactic 'dirty fighting'?

The obvious stuff, elbows, head butts, hitting on the break, rabbit punches we all agree on but what about repeating an obvious stall tactic, is that dirty? I believe it is, we just need a different word for it.

** The Italian fighter G. Rossi was the poster child for that tactic. Watching him fight you would think it was a bare knuckle brawl from the 19th Century. Which incidentally I suspect were often boring fights to watch. Prize fighting needed the introduction of the martial art of boxing or it would never have lasted this long.

[Willie Pep 229]

I have provided fighter testimonial saying Greb wasn't dirty, so what's you point. There are degrees to being a dirty fighter. According to men who shared the ring with him he wasn't intentionally dirty. When he was it was because he was done dirty first. You seem to have an overwhelming need for this to be an absolute. Thing is, it won't be without film.

Why would me calling Wlad dirty anger you? As far as I'm concerned he was a dirty fighter. I mean as long as you don't see a gray area than why should I? He held and leaned on opponents excessively in nearly every fight after the first Brewster fight. This is a fact. You can't have your cake and eat it to. Going by your logic Wlad was a dirty fighter. You have no room for different degrees or levels of being dirty.

Greb was no Saint. But you show nothing that trumps what the men who shared the ring with him had to say. Personally I don't care if he was dirty or not. The man was great. Ask any historian. Even the IBHOF says so!!

Sorry I just want to add this because I think it's wonderful Hollywood history.

Have you ever watched the opening scence to Gentleman Jim with Errol Flynn as Corbett?

It opens with a bare knuckle fight. The referee calls the fighters to scratch, he shakes his finger at the one fighter and warns "No biting" then turns to the other fighter and says, "and if you get you hand in his mouth it's your own fault." The ref yells go and the one fighter immediately grabs his opponent's fist and starts biting it.

Bare knuckle fighting probably wasn't that bad but like I said it really needed the introduction of the MQB rules.

[JAB5239]

How do you view Ali's holding? E.g. Ali-Frazier II.

Ali neutralized Frazier's attacks by grabbing the back of his head and pulling him into his chest. Over and over again.

I would consider that inappropriate behavior but not necessarily dirty fighting.

Is there a difference between dirty fighting and constant holding as a tactic? Or is that unto itself dirty fighting. **

Personally I found Wald just plain boring to watch. I don't care how long he held the title he was bad for the fight game.

You guys are all boxing purists --> counting punches, evaluating styles, Etc. I get that.

But to me it is important that prize fighting be entertaining as well so the casual fan is willing to pop for the PPV ticket, or the game won't last much longer; poking, grabbing, leaning and then waiting for the referee to yell break, and then repeating the action isn't a mark of greatness. Plus as I said, it's bad for the game.

So is a repeated use of that tactic 'dirty fighting'?

The obvious stuff, elbows, head butts, hitting on the break, rabbit punches we all agree on but what about repeating an obvious stall tactic, is that dirty? I believe it is, we just need a different word for it.

** The Italian fighter G. Rossi was the poster child for that tactic. Watching him fight you would think it was a bare knuckle brawl from the 19th Century. Which incidentally I suspect were often boring fights to watch. Prize fighting needed the introduction of the martial art of boxing or it would never have lasted this long.

Ali, dirty. Wlad, dirty. Any fighter who committed more than one foul in their career, DIRTY!!! there is no gray area!!

In all seriousness, what Ali did, what Wlad did were illegal. So technically it is dirty.. I'm a little more flexible on the topic myself. In these cases. Both Ali and Wlad, their fouling was intententional, but less consequential in terms of damaging the other fighter though it did sap energy from them. Dirty to me is the intent to cheat and hurt your opponent with no provocation. If a fighter hits you after the bell and you repay him, that isn't dirty to me. If he repeatedly rabbit punches you and you return the favor...not dirty. If a fighter comes in winging punches and a clash of heads happens....not dirty. If an elbow lands after throwing a hook (as long as it doesn't happen to the point it's intentional) not dirty. Does that mean there should be no warnings or even point deductions in some cases? Hell no.there are rules for a reason. I just don't believe everything is black and white.

I agree 100% about the entertainment aspect. There were fighters in hostory i would categorize as dirty, but absolutely loved watching them. They were must see tv. In the case of Greb, it sounds like he took certain liberties but more often than not according to his peers it was retribution and not just unprovoked cheating. That to me.....that is must watch TV. To bad there is no film of him.

[JAB5239]

Sorry I just want to add this because I think it's wonderful Hollywood history.

Have you ever watched the opening scence to Gentleman Jim with Errol Flynn as Corbett?

It opens with a bare knuckle fight. The referee calls the fighters to scratch, he shakes his finger at the one fighter and warns "No biting" then turns to the other fighter and says, "and if you get you hand in his mouth it's your own fault." The ref yells go and the one fighter immediately grabs his opponent's fist and starts biting it.

Bare knuckle fighting probably wasn't that bad but like I said it really needed the introduction of the MQB rules.

I have not. But now I'm going to have to check it out.

[Dr. Z]

I have provided fighter testimonial saying Greb wasn't dirty, so what's you point. There are degrees to being a dirty fighter. According to men who shared the ring with him he wasn't intentionally dirty. When he was it was because he was done dirty first. You seem to have an overwhelming need for this to be an absolute. Thing is, it won't be without film.

Why would me calling Wlad dirty anger you? As far as I'm concerned he was a dirty fighter. I mean as long as you don't see a gray area than why should I? He held and leaned on opponents excessively in nearly every fight after the first Brewster fight. This is a fact. You can't have your cake and eat it to. Going by your logic Wlad was a dirty fighter. You have no room for different degrees or levels of being dirty.

Greb was no Saint. But you show nothing that trumps what the men who shared the ring with him had to say. Personally I don't care if he was dirty or not. The man was great. Ask any historian. Even the IBHOF says so!!

I'm sure that the HOF and other articles all say others fighters all use the same dirty fouls as Greb. Yeah right... show me articles that say this. You can't. Just admit Grab was a dirty fighter. Wlad is a clean fighter who was docked one point for his long career. Comparing him Greb or to agitate others is a big reach yet you are doing that. Yeah so he clinched some. So did legends like Ali ( behind the head ) and if you go back far enough others like Jack Johnson clinched guys while mixing hitting with holding, going low and hitting on the break which are thing Wlad never did.


I agree Greb was great. Nowhere do I suggest otherwise.

My goal is not to smear Greb it to educate others on brilliant career which including a lot of fouling. And the quotes and information I provided do exactly that. And I've only dug so far into his career, there more about him fouling and more fighters testimonials ...I guarantee that.


The degrees of fouling are thus:


I'll group them for you, in my option they are:


Tier 1 )

Tampering with the gloves.
Kicking a man

Tier 2 )

Intentional head buts
Using your Thumb in another fighter's eye
Low blows
Hitting and holding

Tier 3 )

Kidney shots
Hitting behind the head
Using elbows

Tier 4 )

Excessive clinching
Doing thing like pulling down the other man's trunks


Most of the above are in Greb wheel house.

After his vision was effected he lost his depth perception and the result was that he would grab a guy with his left and shower him with rights. This is the most common foul mentioned in relation to Greb, holding and hitting. Im not saying he didn't use other tricks at times but those accusations come primarily from New York where Greb was unpopular and had a feud with writers

- Steve Compton a Greb historian.>>> Well Greb fouled plenty before the Norfolk fight.

Zivic nominated himself as the "second dirtiest fighter of all time", behind Greb, which is certainly good enough for me.

Matt McGrian Boxing writer and on is way to becoming a historian.

Greb and Zivic probably take the biscuit,at the startr of Grebs first fight with Tunney Harry smashed his forehead onto Gene's nose breaking it,Greb used his thumbs *******ly too,it was a case of "the biter bit "when he fought KId Norfolk ,Norfolk thumbed him so bad he lost the sight of one eye.

From a poster on this board. >> He is correct on the first Tunney fight I say that.

[Willie Pep 229]

I'm sure that the HOF and other articles all say others fighters all use the same dirty fouls as Greb. Yeah right... show me articles that say this. You can't. Just admit Grab was a dirty fighter. Wlad is a clean fighter who was docked one point for his long career. Comparing him Greb or to agitate others is a big reach yet you are doing that. Yeah so he clinched some. So did legends like Ali ( behind the head ) and if you go back far enough others like Jack Johnson clinched guys while mixing hitting with holding, going low and hitting on the break which are thing Wlad never did.


I agree Greb was great. Nowhere do I suggest otherwise.

My goal is not to smear Greb it to educate others on brilliant career which including a lot of fouling. And the quotes and information I provided do exactly that. And I've only dug so far into his career, there more about him fouling and more fighters testimonials ...I guarantee that.


The degrees of fouling are thus:


I'll group them for you, in my option they are:


Tier 1 )

Tampering with the gloves.
Kicking a man

Tier 2 )

Intentional head buts
Using your Thumb in another fighter's eye
Low blows
Hitting and holding

Tier 3 )

Kidney shots
Hitting behind the head
Using elbows

Tier 4 )

Excessive clinching
Doing thing like pulling down the other man's trunks


Most of the above are in Greb wheel house.



- Steve Compton a Greb historian.>>> Well Greb fouled plenty before the Norfolk fight.


Matt McGrian Boxing writer and on is way to becoming a historian.

From a poster on this board. >> He is correct on the first Tunney fight I say that.

Disagree about tier 1 --> kicking not that big a deal. Head butts are. The two most dangerous things a fighter can do is load his gloves and lead with his head. IMHO

In The London Prize Ring Rules (1853) fouls such as gouging, biting, kicking, hitting low, and hitting when down are addressed in rules 15 through 18 as fouls.

But rule 14 in addressing head butts is the only foul where the offender is automatically DQed. Penalties for the other infractions seems to be left up to the referee.

[Dr. Z]

Disagree about tier 1 --> kicking not that big a deal. Head butts are. The two most dangerous things a fighter can do is load his gloves and lead with his head. IMHO

In The London Prize Ring Rules (1853) fouls such as gouging, biting, kicking, hitting low, and hitting when down are addressed in rules 15 through 18 as fouls.

But rule 14 in addressing head butts is the only foul where the offender is automatically DQed. Penalties for the other infractions seems to be left up to the referee.

It depends where you kick him and who good you are it, doesn't it? Head butts can liger on an opponent. They are dangerous and the top of the head is the hardest bone place in the body. I agree with the rules , but they do not use London Rules today. Quote M of Q rules.

A shorter fighter or lower fight coming up to but heads with a taller fighter is the ref's call and boxing has rules to do to a decision after round four if identified by the ref as a foul. Boxing does not have replay review. Perhaps they should.

[Willie Pep 229]

It depends where you kick him and who good you are it, doesn't it? Head butts can liger on an opponent. They are dangerous and the top of the head is the hardest bone place in the body. I agree with the rules , but they do not use London Rules today. Quote M of Q rules.

A shorter fighter or lower fight coming up to but heads with a taller fighter is the ref's call and boxing has rules to do to a decision after round four if identified by the ref as a foul. Boxing does not have replay review. Perhaps they should.

Hey I'm not arguing with you buddy just throwing in my two cents. Just wanted to share a little historical perspective regarding head butts.

Funny thing about the MQB Rules that few notice, but doesn't really matter because no commission actually uses those rules any longer.

Rule 12 MQB Rules

The contest in all other respects to be governed by revised London Prize Ring Rules.

Since the MQB Rules don't address fouls we are referred back to the LPR Rules.

[JAB5239]

I'm sure that the HOF and other articles all say others fighters all use the same dirty fouls as Greb. Yeah right... show me articles that say this. You can't. Just admit Grab was a dirty fighter. Wlad is a clean fighter who was docked one point for his long career. Comparing him Greb or to agitate others is a big reach yet you are doing that. Yeah so he clinched some. So did legends like Ali ( behind the head ) and if you go back far enough others like Jack Johnson clinched guys while mixing hitting with holding, going low and hitting on the break which are thing Wlad never did.


I agree Greb was great. Nowhere do I suggest otherwise.

My goal is not to smear Greb it to educate others on brilliant career which including a lot of fouling. And the quotes and information I provided do exactly that. And I've only dug so far into his career, there more about him fouling and more fighters testimonials ...I guarantee that.


The degrees of fouling are thus:


I'll group them for you, in my option they are:


Tier 1 )

Tampering with the gloves.
Kicking a man

Tier 2 )

Intentional head buts
Using your Thumb in another fighter's eye
Low blows
Hitting and holding

Tier 3 )

Kidney shots
Hitting behind the head
Using elbows

Tier 4 )

Excessive clinching
Doing thing like pulling down the other man's trunks


Most of the above are in Greb wheel house.



- Steve Compton a Greb historian.>>> Well Greb fouled plenty before the Norfolk fight.


Matt McGrian Boxing writer and on is way to becoming a historian.

From a poster on this board. >> He is correct on the first Tunney fight I say that.

The problem with all of this is you need to prove intention. You cannot do that without film. So again, you keep pushing on being "right" on something you cannot show. What you can show are opinions. And as I've said and what I'll stick to is the opinions of the men who shared the ring with him. So once again, no one is saying Greb never fouled. What is a fact though is you can't prove the circumstances of the accusations therefore cannot say it was intentional. It may have been in some circumstances, we don't know.

Using elbows and hitting behind the head should be tier one if intentional. Don't see how it could be lower.