Langford vs Greb

[GhostofDempsey]

1918 is true for Langford but kind of unfair for Greb who was probably at his best in '22. Four years in boxing can make a world of difference and here I believe is a good example of that.

By end of ‘18 Greb has 127 fights and some good wins over McTigue, Meehan, Dillon, McCoy, Levinsky, Hauck, and dropped close losses to the Miske and the Gibbons brothers. He was at the beginning of his prime. By 1918 Langford was still game but in the beginning of his decline. By year’s end he is blind in one eye and suffered four losses in twelve fights that year, albeit against much bigger HWs. By ‘22 he is pulling off a couple of decent wins but Greb would have a much bigger edge.

[JAB5239]

I provided Tunney. It not that Greb was dirty, by singularly fouling his man, rather he mixed in fouls as part of his offense. No low blows, rather throwing punches everywhere including some that were illegal by our standard of modern boxing. And by jumping in and out when he wanted to it invites a clash of heads with Greb being the shorter and hard headed man.

I'll look for the Greb quote himself where he goes so far to say he'll do everything but kick his opponent. I'm not a Greb specialist historian. There are few. And there is no film on the man, for who reason I do not know why. He defiantly was filmed a few times

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see any quote from Gene even insinuating Greb was dirty.

[JAB5239]

One has to consider how this fight would be fought. Greb would not want this to be an inside fight. He would be moving a lot on his feet trying to eek out a points win throwing a high volume of punches and avoiding Langford's clinch. Sam would look to close the distance, cut off the ring and get in close to Harry. Much the way he did with Tiger Flowers. Greb and Flowers fought 3x, Flowers winning two of those contests. All 3 fights were shrouded in controversy over the outcomes. Regardless, they fought each other very closely. A little over a year prior to their first contest, Langford knocked out Flowers in two rounds. He took a lot of punches from Flowers in those two rounds, but figured him out quickly and ended it with a short right to the jaw.

Greb had a better chin than Flowers, and catching him may have been a bit more difficult, but I believe Langford would close the distance. Greb wasn't known as a power puncher, and Langford walked right through Flowers punches once he knew he couldn't hurt him. Langford also had much more experience than Flowers, who only had about 35 fights at the time they fought. I think Langford wins by late KO or decision. However, this fight has to happen around 1918.

Good summary!

[Dr. Z]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see any quote from Gene even insinuating Greb was dirty.

Does Tunney have to say it?

Others have say it?

Greb ruled as champion for two and a half years until a split points defeat to Tiger Flowers in February 1926. He was known for his dirty, brawling fighting style that earned him the nickname the Pittsburgh Windmill .

https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/...-unly-death-32

Here even the boxing hall of fame says it in the bio of Greb.

Greb was also considered a dirty fighter, using elbows, thumbs and his head as often as his fists. -Bio for the boxing hall of fame

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/ind...imer/greb.html

I will look for Tunney saying Greb was dirty, but he was known for mixing in fouls with the action. These are the facts. You can make up your own mind. Even with the fouls he was a great fighter.

The point has been proven, unfortunately we don't have film of Greb in action. I'd really like to see Greb official win over Tunney. Greb vs Walker is a second choice

[JAB5239]

Does Tunney have to say it?

Others have say it?
https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/...-unly-death-32

Here even the boxing hall of fame says it in the bio of Greb.



http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/ind...imer/greb.html

I will look for Tunney saying Greb was dirty, but he was known for mixing in fouls with the action. These are the facts. You can make up your own mind. Even with the fouls he was a great fighter.

The point has been proven, unfortunately we don't have film of Greb in action. I'd really like to see Greb official win over Tunney. Greb vs Walker is a second choice

Yes, he absolutely has to say it if you are going to use him to prove Greb was a dirty fighter. You can't just say he said it and provide no evidence of this. That would make you Queenie. You're better than that.

All fighters foul at times. And certain styles make fouls inevitable even when not intentional. A dirty fighter has the intention of fouling. That's the difference. Than there are instances of dirty fighting that seem less harmful but very intentional. Take Ali's holding behind the head, or Wlad draping himself like a coat over an opponent in the clinch. Both intentional and done on a regular basis, but in my opinion hardly the same as a Fritzie Zivic or Saddler butting and thumbing on a regular basis.

Boxing is a rough sport. I have no doubt Harry had his moments like 99% of others fighters. He may have had more given his darting, whirling style. But according to his peers, he was not the dirty fighter that has been exaggerated upon.

[Dr. Z]

Yes, he absolutely has to say it if you are going to use him to prove Greb was a dirty fighter. You can't just say he said it and provide no evidence of this. That would make you Queenie. You're better than that.

All fighters foul at times. And certain styles make fouls inevitable even when not intentional. A dirty fighter has the intention of fouling. That's the difference. Than there are instances of dirty fighting that seem less harmful but very intentional. Take Ali's holding behind the head, or Wlad draping himself like a coat over an opponent in the clinch. Both intentional and done on a regular basis, but in my opinion hardly the same as a Fritzie Zivic or Saddler butting and thumbing on a regular basis.

Boxing is a rough sport. I have no doubt Harry had his moments like 99% of others fighters. He may have had more given his darting, whirling style. But according to his peers, he was not the dirty fighter that has been exaggerated upon.

The proof is several articles, fighter's, and the boxing hall of fame say it. You can not prove they are making it up. I say he mixed in fouls with his style. I will look for the Tunney quote. In the end you'll have to weight the evidence for yourself. Note I said evidence.

[JAB5239]

The proof is several articles, fighter's, and the boxing hall of fame say it. You can not prove they are making it up. I say he mixed in fouls with his style. I will look for the Tunney quote. In the end you'll have to weight the evidence for yourself. Note I said evidence.

My evidence is the fighters that fought him. They were in the ring with him. The boxing hall of fame didn't even come into existence until 1990. At the end of the day I don't really care if you believe it or not, this is just a conversation. One of many we'll both probably have today.

[Dr. Z]

My evidence is the fighters that fought him. They were in the ring with him. The boxing hall of fame didn't even come into existence until 1990. At the end of the day I don't really care if you believe it or not, this is just a conversation. One of many we'll both probably have today.

So if I show that the fighters themselves said it too, long with the new articles of the times you will believe ii then? Just checking in what you needs in terms off proof coming from your own statements. Once you say it, the bar has been set.

Both intentional and done on a regular basis, but in my opinion hardly the same as a Fritzie Zivic or Saddler butting and thumbing on a regular basis. - jab5239

And no 99% of fighters do not used using elbows, thumbs and butts. Only rare cases like say Golota or Hoyfield

[Willie Pep 229]

When it comes to getting the rep as a dirty fighter, it is not like politics where your opponent will just make-up lies to make you look bad, if a fighter ends up with a dirty reputation there is usually something in the past that keeps the fire burning.

Would be interesting for us to make a list of fighters who got that reputation. Recognizing that the reputation may or maynot be just.

The first name that comes to my mind is Mysterious Billy Smith. There is ofcourse no film of Billy (I suspect) but one can't find an article or story about this guy without accusations of dirty fighting.

[JAB5239]

So if I show that the fighters themselves said it too, long with the new articles of the times you will believe ii then? Just checking in what you needs in terms off proof coming from your own statements. Once you say it, the bar has been set.



And no 99% of fighters do not used using elbows, thumbs and butts. Only rare cases like say Golota or Hoyfield

Fighters clash heads ALL of the time. That doesn't make them a dirty fighter. There are time where a fighter follows through with a hook and the elbow lands. If this isn't happening all the time that doesn't make them a dirty fighter. I'm not saying Greb was an angel, only that his reputation for being dirty has been far exaggerated and some of his best opponents including Tunney seem to feel this way ad well.