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If Dempsey Had Fought Wills?

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  • #21
    Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post

    Why did Wills need to fight an eliminator? He was the highest rated contender for Dempsey and the person that finished first in polls asking who Dempsey should fight next.
    Dempsey was forced to fight an elimination bout with Sharkey to get a rematch. Why is Wills so damn special that he was excused from fighting an elimination bout with Tunney?

    Please don't tell me Wills was ranked #1. Dempsey was champion and still had to fight an elimination fight.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

      Dempsey was forced to fight an elimination bout with Sharkey to get a rematch. Why is Wills so damn special that he was excused from fighting an elimination bout with Tunney?

      Please don't tell me Wills was ranked #1. Dempsey was champion and still had to fight an elimination fight.
      Wills had been number one for years. Why didn't Dempsey make everyone else he fought fight eliminators? And no my friend Dempsey was not champion when he fought Sharkey. I'm not privy to the ins and outs, but Sharkey had beaten Wills who was the number one contender, maybe that's why Dempsey had to fight the eliminator with him. Either way Wills had held the top spot for years while less deserving fighters were given a shot to win the heavyweight championship. I doubt they all had to win eliminator for the privilege either, but I won't say that as a fact as I've never looked into that angle before.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post

        Wills had been number one for years. Why didn't Dempsey make everyone else he fought fight eliminators? And no my friend Dempsey was not champion when he fought Sharkey. I'm not privy to the ins and outs, but Sharkey had beaten Wills who was the number one contender, maybe that's why Dempsey had to fight the eliminator with him. Either way Wills had held the top spot for years while less deserving fighters were given a shot to win the heavyweight championship. I doubt they all had to win eliminator for the privilege either, but I won't say that as a fact as I've never looked into that angle before.
        Looking at the records it doesn't appear any fighter was made to fight an eliminator for all of Dempseys defenses. So the question begs, Why Wills after being the number one contender for years?????

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        • #24
          Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post

          Wills had been number one for years. Why didn't Dempsey make everyone else he fought fight eliminators? And no my friend Dempsey was not champion when he fought Sharkey. I'm not privy to the ins and outs, but Sharkey had beaten Wills who was the number one contender, maybe that's why Dempsey had to fight the eliminator with him. Either way Wills had held the top spot for years while less deserving fighters were given a shot to win the heavyweight championship. I doubt they all had to win eliminator for the privilege either, but I won't say that as a fact as I've never looked into that angle before.
          Never said Dempsey was champion when he fought Sharkey (my friend). I was pointing out that he had just lost the championship and still he was forced into an elimination fight to get a rematch.

          Wills was ranked #1 from from 1924 to 1926 and was the correct next guy.

          But during that period is was common for #1 to prove he was worthy of the shot. Fulton (before Ring Rankings existed) was thought to be next for Willard but they made him go through Dempsey first.

          Dempsey lost the title and was forced to go through Sharkey to get the rematch with Tunney.

          A week after the Tunney-Dempsey fight Rickard announced that Dempsey would meet Wills in Yankee Stadium next summer. (Elimination fight to fight Tunney.) Dempsey and Wills both announced they were on board.

          Unfortunately Sharkey took the aged Wills to school and got the elimination fight instead.

          Elimination bouts were the norm not the exception. The concept of rankings was new and didn't hold the same weight as today.

          Wills was given an opportunity to meet Tunney in an elimination bout and would have likely forced Dempsey/Rickard to give him a shot (via victory over Tunney) in 1926.

          Instead Wills chose to sit on his ranking and demand the 'right' to the title shot.

          It got him nowhere. I repeat even Dempsey (just having lost the title) was forced into an elimination bout with Sharkey. Wills was given bad advise, probably by the idiots in the NYSAC.

          Elimnation bouts was the way it was done.

          P.S. Even Max Baer was forced into an elimination bout with Louis before he could hope for a second shot at Braddock.

          Elimination bouts was the way it worked. I would love to know which was the first HW contest with a rematch clause attached.

          My guess it might be Liston-Clay. It might have actually come that late (via Palermo and Carbo [IBC].)
          Last edited by Willie Pep 229; 02-16-2023, 06:50 PM.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post

            Wills had been number one for years. Why didn't Dempsey make everyone else he fought fight eliminators? And no my friend Dempsey was not champion when he fought Sharkey. I'm not privy to the ins and outs, but Sharkey had beaten Wills who was the number one contender, maybe that's why Dempsey had to fight the eliminator with him. Either way Wills had held the top spot for years while less deserving fighters were given a shot to win the heavyweight championship. I doubt they all had to win eliminator for the privilege either, but I won't say that as a fact as I've never looked into that angle before.
            I wanted to mention this as well.

            Wills was willing to fight an elimination bout in 1924 against Firpo.

            Firpo claimed he got a quick count. (I'm not joking.) Firpo was claiming he deserved a rematch.

            So Wills-Firpo fought an elimination bout in Boyes Thirty Acres. Wills got paid $124K for the fight. (More than Babe Ruth made that year.)

            His victory over Firpo was more important to his claim than the new Ring Magazine was.

            Of course no one knew at that time Dempsey didn't plan on fighting anyone until his ten year contract with Kearns was over, January 1926.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

              Never said Dempsey was champion when he fought Sharkey (my friend). I was pointing out that he had just lost the championship and still he was forced into an elimination fight to get a rematch.

              Wills was ranked #1 from from 1924 to 1926 and was the correct next guy.

              But during that period is was common for #1 to prove he was worthy of the shot. Fulton (before Ring Rankings existed) was thought to be next for Willard but they made him go through Dempsey first.

              Dempsey lost the title and was forced to go through Sharkey to get the rematch with Tunney.

              A week after the Tunney-Dempsey fight Rickard announced that Dempsey would meet Wills in Yankee Stadium next summer. (Elimination fight to fight Tunney.) Dempsey and Wills both announced they were on board.

              Unfortunately Sharkey took the aged Wills to school and got the elimination fight instead.

              Elimination bouts were the norm not the exception. The concept of rankings was new and didn't hold the same weight as today.

              Wills was given an opportunity to meet Tunney in an elimination bout and would have likely forced Dempsey/Rickard to give him a shot (via victory over Tunney) in 1926.

              Instead Wills chose to sit on his ranking and demand the 'right' to the title shot.

              It got him nowhere. I repeat even Dempsey (just having lost the title) was forced into an elimination bout with Sharkey. Wills was given bad advise, probably by the idiots in the NYSAC.

              Elimnation bouts was the way it was done.

              P.S. Even Max Baer was forced into an elimination bout with Louis before he could hope for a second shot at Braddock.

              Elimination bouts was the way it worked. I would love to know which was the first HW contest with a rematch clause attached.

              My guess it might be Liston-Clay. It might have actually come that late (via Palermo and Carbo [IBC].)
              Maybe I misunderstood what you meant when you said Dempsey was champion in your first response to me today.

              Anyway.......Wills wasn't ranked before those years because there was no Ring magazine. But there are a ton of articles and references to his being the top contender since at least 1922.

              None of this explains why no other Dempsey challenger had to fight an elimination fight before Wills-Tunney. Some fought outright terriblterriblright before getting their opportunities. Im not saying eliminations never happened, im questioning why this elimination fight was needed when none of Jack's other challengers needed to do it before said time.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post

                Maybe I misunderstood what you meant when you said Dempsey was champion in your first response to me today.

                Anyway.......Wills wasn't ranked before those years because there was no Ring magazine. But there are a ton of articles and references to his being the top contender since at least 1922.

                None of this explains why no other Dempsey challenger had to fight an elimination fight before Wills-Tunney. Some fought outright terriblterriblright before getting their opportunities. Im not saying eliminations never happened, im questioning why this elimination fight was needed when none of Jack's other challengers needed to do it before said time.
                Shlt Kearns couldn't find a challenger except Wills. And he didn't want Wills, New York, or Rickard. So he ended up with Gibbons.

                The town of Shebly chose Gibbons. (They screwed up so babdly they sent the telegram to a Tom Gibbons who was a sports writer in Michigan.Tommy Gibbons found out about the offer when the newspaper writer contacted him saying he just got an offer to fight Dempsey from someplace in Montana called Shelby. )

                Rickard who was avoiding Wills, found Firpo and built him up with a elimination bout with former champ Willard. We today know that elimination fight should have gone to Wills, but the former champion Willard had been clamering for a rematch so the elimination bout between Wiilard-Firpo was good enough to sell the crowd.

                The fight was a big fight.

                Miske was payback to friends. Dempsey first defense. The fight included friend Billy Miske, friend Floyd Fitzsimmons, and sparing partner Tate (who fought Sam Langford on the under card. Kearns wanted to give Langford one last decent payday.)

                The Brennan fight was promoted by Rickard and Rickard was avoiding Wills.

                Carpentier was obvious: a promotional masterpiece that had little to do with boxing.

                Obviously Carpentier got the fight because he was charming, good looking, exciting, a war hero, and a sensation in Europe (right or wrong).

                IMO the way to Dempsey in 1926 was to take out Tunney in 1925. Thst was the way it was done, so say I.

                P.S. I am aware there were no rankings before 1924. NYSAC claimed itself to be the gate keeper, but they were ignored because they kept championing the mixed bout with Wills that Rickard didn't want.
                Dr. Z Dr. Z likes this.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

                  Shlt Kearns couldn't find a challenger except Wills. And he didn't want Wills, New York, or Rickard. So he ended up with Gibbons.

                  The town of Shebly chose Gibbons. (They screwed up so babdly they sent the telegram to a Tom Gibbons who was a sports writer in Michigan.Tommy Gibbons found out about the offer when the newspaper writer contacted him saying he just got an offer to fight Dempsey from someplace in Montana called Shelby. )

                  Rickard who was avoiding Wills, found Firpo and built him up with a elimination bout with former champ Willard. We today know that elimination fight should have gone to Wills, but the former champion Willard had been clamering for a rematch so the elimination bout between Wiilard-Firpo was good enough to sell the crowd.

                  The fight was a big fight.

                  Miske was payback to friends. Dempsey first defense. The fight included friend Billy Miske, friend Floyd Fitzsimmons, and sparing partner Tate (who fought Sam Langford on the under card. Kearns wanted to give Langford one last decent payday.)

                  The Brennan fight was promoted by Rickard and Rickard was avoiding Wills.

                  Carpentier was obvious: a promotional masterpiece that had little to do with boxing.

                  Obviously Carpentier got the fight because he was charming, good looking, exciting, a war hero, and a sensation in Europe (right or wrong).

                  IMO the way to Dempsey in 1926 was to take out Tunney in 1925. Thst was the way it was done, so say I.

                  P.S. I am aware there were no rankings before 1924. NYSAC claimed itself to be the gate keeper, but they were ignored because they kept championing the mixed bout with Wills that Rickard didn't want.
                  I hate to say this because I like Dempsey, but his team is a direct extention of him no matter how he himself felt about the fight. And I fully agree the way to Dempsey was to take out Tunney. But I wholeheartedly disagree with the whole scenario to begin with. Wills paid his dues and was jobbed out of a title fight and made to jump thru hoops while lesser men received an opportunity.

                  Dempsey was a class guy and a great fighter, but he (his team) had an opportunity to solidify his legacy against any questions by fighting both Wills and Greb. Dempsey is almost always rated highly, so I realize I am in the minority with this opinion....but it's still my opinion.
                  Dr. Z Dr. Z likes this.

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                  • #29
                    [QUOTE=Dr. Z;n31741703]

                    I never said he didn't fight sub 200 points guys, only that he didn't lose to them! What Double standard are you talking about?

                    And Jackson was the British Empire champion you dolt!

                    [/QUOTE

                    https://www.britannica.com/biography...stralian-boxer

                    Now, let's go back to Dempsey and the title of the thread.

                    Which one of Dempsey's wins are clean without him struggling or fouling, getting knocked down , fighting a man who's dying from disease, or fighting a man who's over 35+ and hasn't been active. Go ahead and try to list the names. Taking this names away and he beat who? Who! List the names. We know who Dempsey avoided. They are hall of fame fighters. Four of them.

                    He is overrated today. He clearly used the color line. He struggled to beat some of his better competition and clearly lost to best in Tunney. And he lost and drew a lot and was lucky in the cards in one of these cases.​
                    Jackson was never eligible to fight for the title he fought Slavin for what was billed as the British Commonwealth Title ,but he wasnt eligible for that either.Do some ****ing research!
                    Last edited by Ivich; 02-17-2023, 05:35 AM.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post

                      He was down and almost out vs Brennan, down multiple time vs. Fripo, and beat a dying man in Miske! These wins has an * next to them. He beat Fulton and that one impressive, but the other ones were vs 175 pound men ( Levisnky and Carpentier ) Smith was OLD, and Morris was never Good. He did beat Gibbons who was another 175 pound man, Got any other names.

                      We can take a look at his draws and other fights.
                      Smith was 30 years old when Dempsey first fought him,and he had beaten Moran a month earlier.
                      Brennan?Dempsey was the first man to drop Brennan and the 1 st to stop him
                      1918-02-25 188½ 196 Bill Brennan 39 6 4 Auditorium, Milwaukee W-TKO 6/10 event bout score wiki
                      "Just one man, Fred Fulton, stands today between Jack Dempsey, the shiftiest two-fisted fighter since Bob Fitzsimmons, and Jess Willard, the heavyweight champion of the world. When Dempsey fights as he fought against Bill Brennan here last night, no lesser man can stand against him. Dempsey knocked Brennan out in the sixth round, and it was a masterly piece of work. Very few fighters have taken a better licking or taken their licking better than Brennan did last night. In sixty-seven fights Brennan had not been knocked off his feet, and his record includes about forty knockouts. Dempsey had him down four times in the second round and twice in the sixth. That ought to be answer enough to the question, can Dempsey hit? Just once did Brennan's robust wallop net Dempsey for a punch that stung. Dempsey took that punch and came back fighting like a tiger. Brennan's vaunted defense crumpled like paper before Dempsey's attack and his deadly left hand could not find its mark. Dempsey punished the big Chicagoan in every round .

                      Dempsey fought and beat Miske twice in1918 BEFORE Miske got sick.Miske scaled182 &187 lbs for those fights.
                      Jack Dempsey won the popular decision from Billy Miske of St. Paul in a slow six-round bout here today at a Thanksgiving Day matinee. Only half a dozen hard blows were landed during the fight. There was scarcely any action in the first two rounds, but in the third Miske halted Dempsey with an uppercut to the jaw which gave him the advantage in this round. After this the bout was all in Dempsey's favor, the St. Paul man frequently holding in order to save himself from punishment." (Indianapolis Star)

                      Morris fought Dempsey 3 times her eis the account of their 2nd fight ,in1917
                      Jack Dempsey 198 lbs beat Carl Morris 226 lbs by DQ in round 6 of 10
                      • Date: 1918-02-04
                      • Location: Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, New York, USA
                      • Referee: **** Nugent

                      The Spokane Daily Chronicle reported: "Morris was disqualified after six rounds of fighting, the referee making his decision after Morris had been warned several times for hitting low. Dempsey had all the better of the bout with Morris and was in line for a knockout when the bout was stopped. Dempsey punished Morris and had his opponent groggy when the referee stepped between the fighters."
                      Morris at 226lbs outweighed Dempsey by28lbs. That year [1917]Morris beat Fulton and Moran.
                      The previous year he had beaten,Levinsky,Ross,Smith.and Pelkey

                      Levinsky lost to Dempsey in1918,Dempsey becoming the first man to stop him Levinsky had beaten;
                      Weinert
                      Coffey
                      Madden
                      And drawn with Brennan earlier that year. Dempsey, at185lbs had 10 lbs on Levinsky.
                      Rather different to the huge weight advantages Jeffries enjoyed that I listed and you understandably do not wish to discuss!
                      Carpentier? He had won the white heavyweight title by beating Smith flooring him along the way.
                      As well as being the White Heavyweight Champion,he was the European Champion and the reining Light Heavyweight Champion,any reason why Dempsey should not defend against him?
                      Should he , like Jeffries have looked around for a 39years old 2 years retired opponent.[Fitz ,]he outweighed by41 lbs ? Or a nobody, [Finnegan], whose record was 4-2-4, whom he outweighed by 60lbs and who had been ko'd in 4 rds in his previous fight?

                      Or how about a novice Jack Munroe type 7-2-0?
                      Your'e a hypocrite of the first order do you know that?

                      Fulton? Fulton was considered the number 1 challenger to Willard 6'6" 41-6-1 record ,**** in his prime.Dempsey took him out in seconds! At 208 , he had 20 lbs on Dempsey.

                      Firpo? He had 24lbs on Dempsey hit like a truck and had beaten Willard,Weinert,& Brennan
                      He had Dempsey down twice,hardly "multiple times," as you stated!

                      Slagging off Dempsey for fighting some lighter men when your idol Jeffries made a career out of beating them up, and attacking Dempsey for not defending against Wills ,conveniently ignoring the fact that Jeffries refused to defend against black challengers!


                      Yes blatant hypocrisy!
                      Last edited by Ivich; 02-17-2023, 06:54 AM.

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