High level matchups: Walker Smith jr. vs Ray Leonard

[them_apples]

I labelled it Walker Smith to keep idiots out, anyhow:

I'm open to both sides being able to win right now. I want to do my best to negate my Biases (as best I can). Perhaps we can come up with some new info that might bring us closer to a more accurate idea.

Let's start with the attributes and some intangibles; Leonard seems to be a bit quicker. Keep in mind they are filmed in different levels of quality. I notice Robinson seems faster or equal to Leonard at 154-160 but Leonards footage at 147 is just blisteringly fast. We also don't have much footage of Robinson at 147. There is a small case they have have more similar handspeed at 147. The fastest we saw Leonard look at 160 was against Hagler, ill let others decide if they think he looks faster than Robby vs Lamotta. You won't be able to pick up technique fully on old film, the movements will be static and point a to b, even if framed properly later with doubles at 30 fps.

Style: Leonard will use his legs and speed to set up lighting combinations. He generally won't stand in front of you and fight, but he will trade from time to time and isn't afraid of conflict. Robinson likewise employs a similar style, but I see him more comfortable inside and employing more skills inside. I never saw Leonard use any inside fighting skills, he looked like a fish out of water flailing against Duran at times. Win or lose, I'm certain Robinson wouldn't have looked like that when pinned on the ropes.

Psychology: well both are superstars at the highest level, I'm sure both won't be afraid of each-other or feel inferior. let's say they both go in brimming with confidence, and the press has it 50-50 (this may not have been the case leading up - but for this it's 50-50)

power: They may have similar power, Robinson in my book just throws more power shots in general and has a lot of good knockout set ups. Keep in mind, he's doing this against a lot of guys that are standing in front of him and trying to get at him. And when you fight 5x as many times as Leonard, he's bound to have a highlight reel of him knocking out really physical fighters. Leonard may have had more knockouts if fed this type of fighter, just like how an over weight Toney can dismantle a really good fighter who happens to come trade with him, but look average against someone who just refuses to engage. I would like to see more footage of Robinson against boxers and out fighters - if possible. If they both hit the same target as hard as they could? I guess i'll give the nod to Robinson

Speed: as said before, it seems Leonard has the edge. /we have no real footage of Robinson at 147, but ill add that the style in which they punch, leans to Leonard in terms of speed. Robinson turns his shots over, once again an older style. it digs the knuckles in and lands harder (just try it yourself) but it's not as fast as a shot that engages less muscles. this is my personal observation and also Floyd Mayweather Sr. mentioned it. Leonard could look a little slappy at times because of this, but he also showed he had the ability to deliver direct turned over shots. I'll actually give this one to Leonard because I never saw Robinson vary his punch technique outside of short punches and long ones.

jab: I like Robinsons, he throws it like Joe Louis, Charles, Lennox. a straight stab with a tight flick at the wrist. he seemed to land it a lot. I saw Leonard land jabs to the body, but mostly for set ups. I never saw Leonard dictate a fight with his jab. Maybe because like jones, he never bothered to develope it.

Defense: Leonard, here's the thing, Robinson has better defensive skills, but I don't see him shying from a fight.. he'll find himself in the line of fire at some point and it will become a chin thing. Leonard will and has shown he will stay away from a fighters power all night long and look for openings. Leonard will probably fight like this and thus have less openings to hit. You can often see Robinson throwing combinations and trading in range, he's great at riding shots (similar to Duran) but the fact remains he's in the line of fire more often than not.

Chin: both had good chins, Robinsons seemed better, I never actually saw his legs go, even when tagged.

Competition: this is important because we are judging fighters right now, and we can only ever view them when they are up against someone. Benitez is very slick and hard to hit, doesn't seek to engage, Duran was a very fast slick Brawler. Hagler was iron chinned and also well schooled. Robinson has a massive resume, so we don't even know everyone he's faced. I think many of his opponent's were once again, pretty physical fighters which lends Robinson a set of skills based around that. In this fight we need to look at Leonard vs Benitez and Maybe Robinson vs Turpin (someone find a better one) - to at least get an idea of how they might approach eachothers styles. Theres no point in watching Leonard vs Hagler or Robinson vs Lamotta, because it wouldn't be this type of fight.

Then we have the typical intangibles I like to throw in, how much would having so much more experience help Robinson, if we match them h2h on their best nights?

to be continued, no prediction yet.

[billeau2]

I labelled it Walker Smith to keep idiots out, anyhow:

I'm open to both sides being able to win right now. I want to do my best to negate my Biases (as best I can). Perhaps we can come up with some new info that might bring us closer to a more accurate idea.

Let's start with the attributes and some intangibles; Leonard seems to be a bit quicker. Keep in mind they are filmed in different levels of quality. I notice Robinson seems faster or equal to Leonard at 154-160 but Leonards footage at 147 is just blisteringly fast. We also don't have much footage of Robinson at 147. There is a small case they have have more similar handspeed at 147. The fastest we saw Leonard look at 160 was against Hagler, ill let others decide if they think he looks faster than Robby vs Lamotta. You won't be able to pick up technique fully on old film, the movements will be static and point a to b, even if framed properly later with doubles at 30 fps.

Style: Leonard will use his legs and speed to set up lighting combinations. He generally won't stand in front of you and fight, but he will trade from time to time and isn't afraid of conflict. Robinson likewise employs a similar style, but I see him more comfortable inside and employing more skills inside. I never saw Leonard use any inside fighting skills, he looked like a fish out of water flailing against Duran at times. Win or lose, I'm certain Robinson wouldn't have looked like that when pinned on the ropes.

Psychology: well both are superstars at the highest level, I'm sure both won't be afraid of each-other or feel inferior. let's say they both go in brimming with confidence, and the press has it 50-50 (this may not have been the case leading up - but for this it's 50-50)

power: They may have similar power, Robinson in my book just throws more power shots in general and has a lot of good knockout set ups. Keep in mind, he's doing this against a lot of guys that are standing in front of him and trying to get at him. And when you fight 5x as many times as Leonard, he's bound to have a highlight reel of him knocking out really physical fighters. Leonard may have had more knockouts if fed this type of fighter, just like how an over weight Toney can dismantle a really good fighter who happens to come trade with him, but look average against someone who just refuses to engage. I would like to see more footage of Robinson against boxers and out fighters - if possible. If they both hit the same target as hard as they could? I guess i'll give the nod to Robinson

Speed: as said before, it seems Leonard has the edge. /we have no real footage of Robinson at 147, but ill add that the style in which they punch, leans to Leonard in terms of speed. Robinson turns his shots over, once again an older style. it digs the knuckles in and lands harder (just try it yourself) but it's not as fast as a shot that engages less muscles. this is my personal observation and also Floyd Mayweather Sr. mentioned it. Leonard could look a little slappy at times because of this, but he also showed he had the ability to deliver direct turned over shots. I'll actually give this one to Leonard because I never saw Robinson vary his punch technique outside of short punches and long ones.

jab: I like Robinsons, he throws it like Joe Louis, Charles, Lennox. a straight stab with a tight flick at the wrist. he seemed to land it a lot. I saw Leonard land jabs to the body, but mostly for set ups. I never saw Leonard dictate a fight with his jab. Maybe because like jones, he never bothered to develope it.

Defense: Leonard, here's the thing, Robinson has better defensive skills, but I don't see him shying from a fight.. he'll find himself in the line of fire at some point and it will become a chin thing. Leonard will and has shown he will stay away from a fighters power all night long and look for openings. Leonard will probably fight like this and thus have less openings to hit. You can often see Robinson throwing combinations and trading in range, he's great at riding shots (similar to Duran) but the fact remains he's in the line of fire more often than not.

Chin: both had good chins, Robinsons seemed better, I never actually saw his legs go, even when tagged.

Competition: this is important because we are judging fighters right now, and we can only ever view them when they are up against someone. Benitez is very slick and hard to hit, doesn't seek to engage, Duran was a very fast slick Brawler. Hagler was iron chinned and also well schooled. Robinson has a massive resume, so we don't even know everyone he's faced. I think many of his opponent's were once again, pretty physical fighters which lends Robinson a set of skills based around that. In this fight we need to look at Leonard vs Benitez and Maybe Robinson vs Turpin (someone find a better one) - to at least get an idea of how they might approach eachothers styles. Theres no point in watching Leonard vs Hagler or Robinson vs Lamotta, because it wouldn't be this type of fight.

Then we have the typical intangibles I like to throw in, how much would having so much more experience help Robinson, if we match them h2h on their best nights?

to be continued, no prediction yet.

Some really great observations. Yes, the older fighters did have more follow through, from the shoulder to the end "dig." When one finds any weakness in a fighter it has a pronounced/compound effect at a comparison at this level: The 'compound' effect is: Any error compounds significantly when another is introduced. To put in context... Robinson really had no weakness. This means that if one could find ONE weakness... Well that would be uncompounded. Most fighters have at least a few weaknesses. So with Leonard that would be, fighting inside... But aside from that? Its tough! so this truly is a tough comparison. If we took Jones for example: Not greatest chin, problem with really good technical guys who could outangle his speed (First fight with Griffin)... these two errors would mean that Robinson could exploit him on multiple fronts and this makes this disadvantage more than just a couple of things!

I believe what I said above regarding two fighters at the level and with the skill levels of Robinson and Leonard... It does not apply to a fighter who does one thing really well... Fullmer was a horrid sight in the ring but had one set of skills he did well...

back to this comparison... I think its tough, both guys had that intangible meaness, that ability to have what was needed... But at the end of the day? If they fought ten times Robinson was better... and not by much. For precedent consider the first Duran fight... Duran could box well enough to beat Ray up and get in the bigger shots as the bigger puncher. So it would be for Robinson imo.

[them_apples]

Some really great observations. Yes, the older fighters did have more follow through, from the shoulder to the end "dig." When one finds any weakness in a fighter it has a pronounced/compound effect at a comparison at this level: The 'compound' effect is: Any error compounds significantly when another is introduced. To put in context... Robinson really had no weakness. This means that if one could find ONE weakness... Well that would be uncompounded. Most fighters have at least a few weaknesses. So with Leonard that would be, fighting inside... But aside from that? Its tough! so this truly is a tough comparison. If we took Jones for example: Not greatest chin, problem with really good technical guys who could outangle his speed (First fight with Griffin)... these two errors would mean that Robinson could exploit him on multiple fronts and this makes this disadvantage more than just a couple of things!

I believe what I said above regarding two fighters at the level and with the skill levels of Robinson and Leonard... It does not apply to a fighter who does one thing really well... Fullmer was a horrid sight in the ring but had one set of skills he did well...

back to this comparison... I think its tough, both guys had that intangible meaness, that ability to have what was needed... But at the end of the day? If they fought ten times Robinson was better... and not by much. For precedent consider the first Duran fight... Duran could box well enough to beat Ray up and get in the bigger shots as the bigger puncher. So it would be for Robinson imo.

Absolutely, and in even with the probabilities measured its whatever the dice lands on. We need to figure out which probabilities carry more weight than others. For example would there be much opportunity to fight inside? Does robby every adjust and press an inside fight or does he just welcome it if it happens?

I want to say my first prediction is Leonard becomes the sniper and Robinson the stalker, maybe 60-40 ratio. If that makes sense. I see Robinsons combinations as better and more dangerous in exchanges, but thats a probability thing - both could catch eachother.

ill say with Duran we should make a point that Leonard was scared of him to some degree, and Duran was a short fast fighter who was built for inside fighting. So its not entirely the same fight. Robinson cant press the top of his head under leonards chin and block his vision below. Both have the same punching distance really.

[The Old LefHook]

We know if Leonard wins, the rematch is definitely a mythical matchup.

[Willie Pep 229]

We know if Leonard wins, the rematch is definitely a mythical matchup.

Of course he wouldn't, it's he only certainty we can count on.

But lets try to Imagine how agasted SRR would be when he finds it's a 12 round fight, with 10oz thumbless gloves.

Better yet, since this is a mythical matchup let's be realistic: MikeTrainer never gives SRR the bigger cut and Robinson never takes less than most.

Result: SRR figures out he got jobbed in the contract and doesn't bother showing up the night of the fight; three days later is fighting on the otherside of the country and the next day doing the Jimmy Kimmel show.

See that's the big problem with these mythical matchups, no one wants to actually deal with who these guys really were.

[billeau2]

Absolutely, and in even with the probabilities measured its whatever the dice lands on. We need to figure out which probabilities carry more weight than others. For example would there be much opportunity to fight inside? Does robby every adjust and press an inside fight or does he just welcome it if it happens?

I want to say my first prediction is Leonard becomes the sniper and Robinson the stalker, maybe 60-40 ratio. If that makes sense. I see Robinsons combinations as better and more dangerous in exchanges, but thats a probability thing - both could catch eachother.

ill say with Duran we should make a point that Leonard was scared of him to some degree, and Duran was a short fast fighter who was built for inside fighting. So its not entirely the same fight. Robinson cant press the top of his head under leonards chin and block his vision below. Both have the same punching distance really.

Robinson having better combos, something I agree with 100% by the way, but how does that figure, translate into Robinson having a material advantage? This is where the "rubber meets the road" so to speak... Here is the problem. It goes back to weaknesses and compounding more than one weakness. With a lack of weakness any path to victory is blocked. In a word: How does Robinson Capitalize on his superior combo punching?

The Duran fight tells us that leonard was aware (scared) of Duran's inside game... so even this ONE weakness, gave Duran a path. You say its not the same fight...again this is absolutely true. One cannot expect that leonard would fall to Robinson SImply because Robinson was better inside. It just doesn't quite work that way lol.

These weaknesses, especially when they compound in any fighter, give us a great head start on probability... where the dice land. This along with precedent. I love Jones as an example of this process. Jones was an incredible fighter with a chin that was vulnerable and a reliance upon athletic ability to the degree that as soon as guys saw ONE problem, there was a compound effect... Attacking Jones regularly and not being put off by his feints wrote for a diminished capacity for Jones following Tarver's victory. It was Jones vulnerability to pressure by outward appearances. But this pressure made his chin suspect and it allowed "cute" guys like Calzighe, to use angles to avoid the menacing hook that Jones used to do such a number on Toney (for example).

[The Old LefHook]

Of course he wouldn't, it's he only certainty we can count on.

But lets try to Imagine how agasted SRR would be when he finds it's a 12 round fight, with 10oz thumbless gloves.

Better yet, since this is a mythical matchup let's be realistic: MikeTrainer never gives SRR the bigger cut and Robinson never takes less than most.

Result: SRR figures out he got jobbed in the contract and doesn't bother showing up the night of the fight; three days later is fighting on the otherside of the country and the next day doing the Jimmy Kimmel show.

See that's the big problem with these mythical matchups, no one wants to actually deal with who these guys really were.

You are a complete fuss budget. They are two boxers on their best night ever, and yes, they showed up. Now they will fight in the equipment of Robinson's era for fifteen bees, and not in pillow gloves, sir. The referee is from Robinson's era as well. The opponent knows all about Robinson, but Robinson is from the wrong era and cannot research his opponent. That is one reason we use Robinson's equipment. In the auditorium people are smoking. When Robinson finds out his opponent calls himself sugar, I expect him to be furious.

[them_apples]

Of course he wouldn't, it's he only certainty we can count on.

But lets try to Imagine how agasted SRR would be when he finds it's a 12 round fight, with 10oz thumbless gloves.

Better yet, since this is a mythical matchup let's be realistic: MikeTrainer never gives SRR the bigger cut and Robinson never takes less than most.

Result: SRR figures out he got jobbed in the contract and doesn't bother showing up the night of the fight; three days later is fighting on the otherside of the country and the next day doing the Jimmy Kimmel show.

See that's the big problem with these mythical matchups, no one wants to actually deal with who these guys really were.

by thumbless you mean attached thumb I assume, and if its at welterweight in 1981 or even today, its still 8 oz. Can anyone confirm when middleweights started using 10oz? But otherwise both SRR and SRL would be using similar equipment in both eras. Horsehair padded 8oz fight gloves. The eras changed in the early to mid 20s, and changed again I think in the 90s. 10 oz weren’t even in use at heavyweight I think until mid to late 80s. So believe it or not, if you wear 8oz gloves today (reyes or mx) you are wearing something pretty similar to what boxing has used for a very long time minus the attached thumb.. I used to have a pair, they are a notch up from hot paws mittens and can be rolled into a ball since its not foam.

[them_apples]

Robinson having better combos, something I agree with 100% by the way, but how does that figure, translate into Robinson having a material advantage? This is where the "rubber meets the road" so to speak... Here is the problem. It goes back to weaknesses and compounding more than one weakness. With a lack of weakness any path to victory is blocked. In a word: How does Robinson Capitalize on his superior combo punching?

The Duran fight tells us that leonard was aware (scared) of Duran's inside game... so even this ONE weakness, gave Duran a path. You say its not the same fight...again this is absolutely true. One cannot expect that leonard would fall to Robinson SImply because Robinson was better inside. It just doesn't quite work that way lol.

These weaknesses, especially when they compound in any fighter, give us a great head start on probability... where the dice land. This along with precedent. I love Jones as an example of this process. Jones was an incredible fighter with a chin that was vulnerable and a reliance upon athletic ability to the degree that as soon as guys saw ONE problem, there was a compound effect... Attacking Jones regularly and not being put off by his feints wrote for a diminished capacity for Jones following Tarver's victory. It was Jones vulnerability to pressure by outward appearances. But this pressure made his chin suspect and it allowed "cute" guys like Calzighe, to use angles to avoid the menacing hook that Jones used to do such a number on Toney (for example).

For sure, I made the point that rayL likely would stay away from inside fighting, and it’s doubtful at least in my observation that Robinson would make a gameplan out of getting inside and rumbling. Leonard never faced many fighters who’s entire gameplan was to get inside, that style is an old style but Duran had some very old trainers. Robinson on the other hand, dealt with it many times. We saw glimpses of the style in Frazier, Briscoe etc Eddie Futch being pretty well versed in it.

a little off topic but Jones I’m starting to think is a little more than just athletcism. He’s actually very skillful. He fights like Charley Burely. I notice Jones seems to know a lot about old styles so I did a little of a deeper dive on him. His defense is great. And in an era with open gloves he may have even been better. Jones uses the long arm defense where his hands make contact with the shoulder and prevent the oponent from throwing anything with body weight on it. Then he tucks his head behind his arms and uses them as shields, or rides the arm punches that manage to get through with his own body/neck movement. He did all this with thumbs attached. Foreman in the 90s said he gave it up (likely due to the gloves, preventing it from working). I actually don’t think athleticism played that big of a role in Jones success, well anymore than other great fighters. This is my opinion I would have to elaborate on it more in another thread.

[them_apples]

I guess we would be fools not to talk about the mental aspect. As far as personalities go, how would they clash and interact.

one possibility: they both sort of fill the same personality, just different eras. Both were showman. Both had enormous egos. I could actually see these 2 hating each-other as they are all both competing on all the fronts. Both were considered good looking and charming. Both had very eye pleasing styles with swagger equivalent to the popular music if the day. leonards cook was an earth wind and fire rythm, Robinsons was ragtime? Jazz? This would be a serious fight damnit maybe the best ever.