Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

High level matchups: Walker Smith jr. vs Ray Leonard

Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #11
    Originally posted by them_apples View Post

    by thumbless you mean attached thumb I assume, and if its at welterweight in 1981 or even today, its still 8 oz. Can anyone confirm when middleweights started using 10oz? But otherwise both SRR and SRL would be using similar equipment in both eras. Horsehair padded 8oz fight gloves. The eras changed in the early to mid 20s, and changed again I think in the 90s. 10 oz weren’t even in use at heavyweight I think until mid to late 80s. So believe it or not, if you wear 8oz gloves today (reyes or mx) you are wearing something pretty similar to what boxing has used for a very long time minus the attached thumb.. I used to have a pair, they are a notch up from hot paws mittens and can be rolled into a ball since its not foam.
    After his eye surgery SRL in his first comeback fight, Kevin Howard maybe, he forced the use of a thumbless gloves, not attached thumb. It came and went with the one fight. I was just being sarcastic about them being used for the mythical fight.

    I was under the impression that Leonard did force Hagler to use 10oz gloves. There I may well be incorrect.

    Comment


    • #12
      Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

      After his eye surgery SRL in his first comeback fight, Kevin Howard maybe, he forced the use of a thumbless gloves, not attached thumb. It came and went with the one fight. I was just being sarcastic about them being used for the mythical fight.

      I was under the impression that Leonard did force Hagler to use 10oz gloves. There I may well be incorrect.
      wow I did not know this. I wonder if any pairs are for sale.

      Comment


      • #13
        Originally posted by them_apples View Post

        wow I did not know this. I wonder if any pairs are for sale.
        I am not 100% sure I got it right, but more like 90%. I need to look it up too.

        [EDIT] Yea, here we go, this is a pic of the gloves used.

        2027a__Auc41_lg.jpeg
        Last edited by Willie Pep 229; 08-07-2022, 11:11 PM.

        Comment


        • #14
          Originally posted by them_apples View Post

          For sure, I made the point that rayL likely would stay away from inside fighting, and it’s doubtful at least in my observation that Robinson would make a gameplan out of getting inside and rumbling. Leonard never faced many fighters who’s entire gameplan was to get inside, that style is an old style but Duran had some very old trainers. Robinson on the other hand, dealt with it many times. We saw glimpses of the style in Frazier, Briscoe etc Eddie Futch being pretty well versed in it.

          a little off topic but Jones I’m starting to think is a little more than just athletcism. He’s actually very skillful. He fights like Charley Burely. I notice Jones seems to know a lot about old styles so I did a little of a deeper dive on him. His defense is great. And in an era with open gloves he may have even been better. Jones uses the long arm defense where his hands make contact with the shoulder and prevent the oponent from throwing anything with body weight on it. Then he tucks his head behind his arms and uses them as shields, or rides the arm punches that manage to get through with his own body/neck movement. He did all this with thumbs attached. Foreman in the 90s said he gave it up (likely due to the gloves, preventing it from working). I actually don’t think athleticism played that big of a role in Jones success, well anymore than other great fighters. This is my opinion I would have to elaborate on it more in another thread.
          Parrying! A lost art indeed. Yes jones did parry as such. Catching the blows a way out, and... Using the head and shoulders properly. There is also an angle one can make with the head and shoulders so the punch sails over, and one can parry the punches in the interm. Jones definitely had skills as well as athletacism. Remember: he protected any foibles he had an entire career and fought some great fighters in so doing.
          Willow The Wisp Willow The Wisp likes this.

          Comment


          • #15
            Originally posted by them_apples View Post
            I guess we would be fools not to talk about the mental aspect. As far as personalities go, how would they clash and interact.

            one possibility: they both sort of fill the same personality, just different eras. Both were showman. Both had enormous egos. I could actually see these 2 hating each-other as they are all both competing on all the fronts. Both were considered good looking and charming. Both had very eye pleasing styles with swagger equivalent to the popular music if the day. leonards cook was an earth wind and fire rythm, Robinsons was ragtime? Jazz? This would be a serious fight damnit maybe the best ever.
            They were also Mean as hell when needed lol. Could punch with really bad intentions.
            Willow The Wisp Willow The Wisp likes this.

            Comment


            • #16
              Originally posted by them_apples View Post
              I labelled it Walker Smith to keep idiots out, anyhow:

              I'm open to both sides being able to win right now. I want to do my best to negate my Biases (as best I can). Perhaps we can come up with some new info that might bring us closer to a more accurate idea.

              Let's start with the attributes and some intangibles; Leonard seems to be a bit quicker. Keep in mind they are filmed in different levels of quality. I notice Robinson seems faster or equal to Leonard at 154-160 but Leonards footage at 147 is just blisteringly fast. We also don't have much footage of Robinson at 147. There is a small case they have have more similar handspeed at 147. The fastest we saw Leonard look at 160 was against Hagler, ill let others decide if they think he looks faster than Robby vs Lamotta. You won't be able to pick up technique fully on old film, the movements will be static and point a to b, even if framed properly later with doubles at 30 fps.

              Style: Leonard will use his legs and speed to set up lighting combinations. He generally won't stand in front of you and fight, but he will trade from time to time and isn't afraid of conflict. Robinson likewise employs a similar style, but I see him more comfortable inside and employing more skills inside. I never saw Leonard use any inside fighting skills, he looked like a fish out of water flailing against Duran at times. Win or lose, I'm certain Robinson wouldn't have looked like that when pinned on the ropes.

              Psychology: well both are superstars at the highest level, I'm sure both won't be afraid of each-other or feel inferior. let's say they both go in brimming with confidence, and the press has it 50-50 (this may not have been the case leading up - but for this it's 50-50)

              power: They may have similar power, Robinson in my book just throws more power shots in general and has a lot of good knockout set ups. Keep in mind, he's doing this against a lot of guys that are standing in front of him and trying to get at him. And when you fight 5x as many times as Leonard, he's bound to have a highlight reel of him knocking out really physical fighters. Leonard may have had more knockouts if fed this type of fighter, just like how an over weight Toney can dismantle a really good fighter who happens to come trade with him, but look average against someone who just refuses to engage. I would like to see more footage of Robinson against boxers and out fighters - if possible. If they both hit the same target as hard as they could? I guess i'll give the nod to Robinson

              Speed: as said before, it seems Leonard has the edge. /we have no real footage of Robinson at 147, but ill add that the style in which they punch, leans to Leonard in terms of speed. Robinson turns his shots over, once again an older style. it digs the knuckles in and lands harder (just try it yourself) but it's not as fast as a shot that engages less muscles. this is my personal observation and also Floyd Mayweather Sr. mentioned it. Leonard could look a little slappy at times because of this, but he also showed he had the ability to deliver direct turned over shots. I'll actually give this one to Leonard because I never saw Robinson vary his punch technique outside of short punches and long ones.

              jab: I like Robinsons, he throws it like Joe Louis, Charles, Lennox. a straight stab with a tight flick at the wrist. he seemed to land it a lot. I saw Leonard land jabs to the body, but mostly for set ups. I never saw Leonard dictate a fight with his jab. Maybe because like jones, he never bothered to develope it.

              Defense: Leonard, here's the thing, Robinson has better defensive skills, but I don't see him shying from a fight.. he'll find himself in the line of fire at some point and it will become a chin thing. Leonard will and has shown he will stay away from a fighters power all night long and look for openings. Leonard will probably fight like this and thus have less openings to hit. You can often see Robinson throwing combinations and trading in range, he's great at riding shots (similar to Duran) but the fact remains he's in the line of fire more often than not.

              Chin: both had good chins, Robinsons seemed better, I never actually saw his legs go, even when tagged.

              Competition: this is important because we are judging fighters right now, and we can only ever view them when they are up against someone. Benitez is very slick and hard to hit, doesn't seek to engage, Duran was a very fast slick Brawler. Hagler was iron chinned and also well schooled. Robinson has a massive resume, so we don't even know everyone he's faced. I think many of his opponent's were once again, pretty physical fighters which lends Robinson a set of skills based around that. In this fight we need to look at Leonard vs Benitez and Maybe Robinson vs Turpin (someone find a better one) - to at least get an idea of how they might approach eachothers styles. Theres no point in watching Leonard vs Hagler or Robinson vs Lamotta, because it wouldn't be this type of fight.

              Then we have the typical intangibles I like to throw in, how much would having so much more experience help Robinson, if we match them h2h on their best nights?

              to be continued, no prediction yet.
              Terrific analysis!!!!!!

              Comment


              • #17
                Robinson's greatest wins were against fighters who plodded forward, but he also lost to those types as well. He put on a clinic against Gavilan who was a slick defensive boxer. Leonard's best win was Hearns, and he was behind on points when he pulled off a come from behind win against Hearns, he was gifted a draw in their rematch. If their first fight is 12 rounds, he loses. Robinson was the more durable of the two, and could adapt better to different styles. I would favor Robinson by UD. He wins the counter-punch war and makes Leonard miss more than Leonard could make Robinson miss.

                Comment


                • #18
                  Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
                  Robinson's greatest wins were against fighters who plodded forward, but he also lost to those types as well. He put on a clinic against Gavilan who was a slick defensive boxer. Leonard's best win was Hearns, and he was behind on points when he pulled off a come from behind win against Hearns, he was gifted a draw in their rematch. If their first fight is 12 rounds, he loses. Robinson was the more durable of the two, and could adapt better to different styles. I would favor Robinson by UD. He wins the counter-punch war and makes Leonard miss more than Leonard could make Robinson miss.

                  Robinson did fight guys that plodded forward, but they were good at plodding forward. If you stood in front of them they were dangerous to anyone and often fought dirty and very aggressive. So case in point his style matched around dealing with these kind of fighters. I highly doubt Robinson at his prime like Leonard was - would have lost to Duran at 147. Duran was great and would have made it a fight, but Robinson was just top tier at dealing with ****ers and had great combinations and defense against this type of fight.

                  good call on his win of gavilian, although it was a very competitive fight(didnt think it was a clinic). I don’t want to speak to soon, but was gavilian past prime?
                  Last edited by them_apples; 08-12-2022, 11:44 PM.

                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X
                  TOP