Heavyweight Champion--Toughest Man Alive

[Willow The Wisp]

Regarding the mention of a stylized or restricted combat sport (Like Boxing) creating behavioral patters creating a delta for efficiency in a "Real fight" - sure, but...MMA is the most open rules combat sport among those popular enough to matter, and even in that, the restrictions relating to eye gouging and biting in close quarters provides the use of grappling with an impunity that Does Not Exist on the battlefield, barroom, back alley and cell block, where those maiming and show-stopping techniques are the very first response to being out-grappled, and may come as quick (or quicker) as a choke or submission hold is applied, in a "Real fight".

So this means that MMA is as much subject to that "gap delta" as a boxer or kickboxer is. Not that grappling doesn't occupy a huge space in the hand to hand tool belt. It sure does. And surely, you never get to practice gouging and biting enough anywhere to become "expert" before you are shot or imprisoned. The Best response, therefore, is to blast him with a knockout combination and walk away before the weapons and the mobs and the cops show up. Laying on the floor in a guard position is seldom the right answer. Nobody is as well trained to deliver that combination and exit as the boxer is. Nobody is even close. So, if the application of the smartest technique in a standard situation is your way of defining the "Toughest Man Alive "......Then I've brought you right back to where you've started. The Heavyweight Champion of the World.

[The Old LefHook]

Regarding the mention of a stylized or restricted combat sport (Like Boxing) creating behavioral patters creating a delta for efficiency in a "Real fight" - sure, but...MMA is the most open rules combat sport among those popular enough to matter, and even in that, the restrictions relating to eye gouging and biting in close quarters provides the use of grappling with an impunity that Does Not Exist on the battlefield, barroom, back alley and cell block, where those maiming and show-stopping techniques are the very first response to being out-grappled, and may come as quick (or quicker) as a choke or submission hold is applied, in a "Real fight".

So this means that MMA is as much subject to that "gap delta" as a boxer or kickboxer is. Not that grappling doesn't occupy a huge space in the hand to hand tool belt. It sure does. And surely, you never get to practice gouging and biting enough anywhere to become "expert" before you are shot or imprisoned. The Best response, therefore, is to blast him with a knockout combination and walk away before the weapons and the mobs and the cops show up. Laying on the floor in a guard position is seldom the right answer. Nobody is as well trained to deliver that combination and exit as the boxer is. Nobody is even close. So, if the application of the smartest technique in a standard situation is your way of defining the "Toughest Man Alive "......Then I've brought you right back to where you've started. The Heavyweight Champion of the World.

They can't do it in the ring but you are claiming they can do it outside it?

[billeau2]

Regarding the mention of a stylized or restricted combat sport (Like Boxing) creating behavioral patters creating a delta for efficiency in a "Real fight" - sure, but...MMA is the most open rules combat sport among those popular enough to matter, and even in that, the restrictions relating to eye gouging and biting in close quarters provides the use of grappling with an impunity that Does Not Exist on the battlefield, barroom, back alley and cell block, where those maiming and show-stopping techniques are the very first response to being out-grappled, and may come as quick (or quicker) as a choke or submission hold is applied, in a "Real fight".

So this means that MMA is as much subject to that "gap delta" as a boxer or kickboxer is. Not that grappling doesn't occupy a huge space in the hand to hand tool belt. It sure does. And surely, you never get to practice gouging and biting enough anywhere to become "expert" before you are shot or imprisoned. The Best response, therefore, is to blast him with a knockout combination and walk away before the weapons and the mobs and the cops show up. Laying on the floor in a guard position is seldom the right answer. Nobody is as well trained to deliver that combination and exit as the boxer is. Nobody is even close. So, if the application of the smartest technique in a standard situation is your way of defining the "Toughest Man Alive "......Then I've brought you right back to where you've started. The Heavyweight Champion of the World.

Those are great points. It is ultimately a social thing. What is acceptable and what do we train to do? The axiom is" you fight how you train, and a lot can be said for training the quick blast!

[Willow The Wisp]

They can't do it in the ring but you are claiming they can do it outside it?

Clarification please: Do what?

[Willie Pep 229]

My dad was with the Army Air Corp, 441st Troop Carrier, 99th Squadron.

Wait until the end before being impressed; he got lucky. The world went to war and he got unnoticed.

His separation papers identifies him as participating in the following fields of operation: South France (Dragoon); Rome (Anzio); Normandy (Overlord); Ardennes (Bulge); Holland (Market-Garden); Berlin (Occupation, which was actually Austria).

On Setember 1st, 1945 he had 84 of 87 points needed for separation. (They stopped counting once the Japs surrendered in August.)

Had the war continued for another two years in the Pacific, as expected, it wouldn't have matter, he would have been home by Xmas 1945 anyway. Thanks to the 101st Airborne.

He received all the battle points awarded the 101st Airborne whom his Troop Carrier dropped and then resupplied.

Now the whole truth. My father was (eventually) a low level technical sergeant (mostly a corporal) working in operations.

He spent most days typing orders. He leaned his rifle against his cot at night and against his desk during the day. (He had to have it with him but never fired it in action.)

His battle assignment consisted of sitting at the back of the plane and watching, with a pair of field glasses, as the101st jumped. He then went through debriefing when returning to base.

The Army had never used paratroopers before and really had no clue what was going to happen. They simply needed eyes, doing nothing but watching. Ironically by the time we had it mastered the war was over.

His planes did take fire (mostly flak) and his life was in danger during those periods, but not really enought to deserve all those battle points.

Now the punch line; his situation was brought about by good old racism.

His boot camp drill instructor was a Southern cracker who hated Italians (eye-talians). One day an Air Corp officer was looking for volunteers from the army ranks. (He was drafted in 1942 along with everyone else.) Having no clue what the Air Corp was, he was the first to step forward anyway; anything to get away from the cracker DI.

Results: he ended up with a lucky horse shoe shoved up his ass. He was part of every major engagement the 101st was in and got all their battle points without the (with some) risk.

A front seat view of the war; the best years of his life.

P.S. He also, before Overlord, use to drop black -ops (resistance fighters) into France, circa 1943. ***

One night he stepped onto plane, not with his regular crew. There was a large hole cut in the middle of the floor with four operatives sitting with their feet dangling over the edge. Dressed in black and black face one of the operatives asked if he spoke French. He said no and they proceeded to ignore him and talked to eachother in French.

As they flew through the dark into France my father suddenly realized one of the operatives was a woman.

Eventually the light went on and they slipped off into the dark. They must of been using black chutes because my father couldn't see anything.

When the plane returned to England my father waited to be debrief but it never happened.

He would make several more of these flights (but no more women), never got debrief and never understood his purpose, except that maybe they just wanted someone in the back of the plane. He was always alone.

Finally I was able to figure something out. There was a famous female resistance fighter who became known as "Ike's girl" because of the great things she did with the resistance. The **** caught her and sent a photo of her naked, to Eisenhower after they had tortured her, before she was executed. She is on Wikipedia.

Because of the location and timing of the drop for her last mission, (coupled with my father being at that base at that time) I think there is a good chance she was the woman my father heard talking that night.

*** EDITED Spring 1944 - sorry about that.

[QueensburyRules]

My dad was with the Army Air Corp, 441st Troop Carrier, 99th Squadron.

Wait until the end before being impressed; he got lucky. The world went to war and he got unnoticed.

His separation papers identifies him as participating in the following fields of operation: South France (Dragoon); Rome (Anzio); Normandy (Overlord); Ardennes (Bulge); Holland (Market-Garden); Berlin (Occupation, which was actually Austria).

On Setember 1st, 1945 he had 84 of 87 points needed for separation. (They stopped counting once the Japs surrendered in August.)

Had the war continued for another two years in the Pacific, as expected, it wouldn't have matter, he would have been home by Xmas 1945 anyway. Thanks to the 101st Airborne.

He received all the battle points awarded the 101st Airborne whom his Troop Carrier dropped and then resupplied.

Now the whole truth. My father was (eventually) a low level technical sergeant (mostly a corporal) working in operations.

He spent most days typing orders. He leaned his rifle against his cot at night and against his desk during the day. (He had to have it with him but never fired it in action.)

His battle assignment consisted of sitting at the back of the plane and watching, with a pair of field glasses, as the101st jumped. He then went through debriefing when returning to base.

The Army had never used paratroopers before and really had no clue what was going to happen. They simply needed eyes, doing nothing but watching. Ironically by the time we had it mastered the war was over.

His planes did take fire (mostly flak) and his life was in danger during those periods, but not really enought to deserve all those battle points.

Now the punch line; his situation was brought about by good old racism.

His boot camp drill instructor was a Southern ******* who hated Italians (eye-talians). One day an Air Corp officer was looking for volunteers from the army ranks. (He was drafted in 1942 along with everyone else.) Having no clue what the Air Corp was, he was the first to step forward anyway; anything to get away from the ******* DI.

Results: he ended up with a lucky horse shoe shoved up his ass. He was part of every major engagement the 101st was in and got all their battle points without the (with some) risk.

A front seat view of the war; the best years of his life.

P.S. He also, before Overlord, use to drop black -ops (resistance fighters) into France, circa 1943.

One night he stepped onto plane, not with his regular crew. There was a large hole cut in the middle of the floor with four operatives sitting with their feet dangling over the edge. Dressed in black and black face one of the operatives asked if he spoke French. He said no and they proceeded to ignore him and talked to eachother in French.

As they flew through the dark into France my father suddenly realized one of the operatives was a woman.

Eventually the light went on and they slipped off into the dark. They must of been using black chutes because my father couldn't see anything.

When the plane returned to England my father waited to be debrief but it never happened.

He would make several more of these flights (but no more women), never got debrief and never understood his purpose, except that maybe they just wanted someone in the back of the plane. He was always alone.

Finally I was able to figure something out. There was a famous female resistance fighter who became known as "Ike's girl" because of the great things she did with the resistance. The **** caught her and sent a photo of her naked, to Eisenhower after they had tortured her, before she was executed. She is on Wikipedia.

Because of the location and timing of the drop for her last mission, (coupled with my father being at that base at that time) I think there is a good chance she was the woman my father heard talking that night.

- - Very impressive Pep. Thought you mentioned you had kids, so maybe time to put together a package for the posterity of the family as I recently did for my two boys.

Talked boxing with fella not far from me as I walked back from my grocer in a chance encounter, a classic neighbor chat over the fence. He has the Spanish Land Grant given his ancestor who settled on the Rio Grande.

You don't have a Spanish Land Grant, but you had your pop who is quite a bit more direct.

[Willow The Wisp]

My dad was with the Army Air Corp, 441st Troop Carrier, 99th Squadron.

Wait until the end before being impressed; he got lucky. The world went to war and he got unnoticed.

His separation papers identifies him as participating in the following fields of operation: South France (Dragoon); Rome (Anzio); Normandy (Overlord); Ardennes (Bulge); Holland (Market-Garden); Berlin (Occupation, which was actually Austria).

On Setember 1st, 1945 he had 84 of 87 points needed for separation. (They stopped counting once the Japs surrendered in August.)

Had the war continued for another two years in the Pacific, as expected, it wouldn't have matter, he would have been home by Xmas 1945 anyway. Thanks to the 101st Airborne.

He received all the battle points awarded the 101st Airborne whom his Troop Carrier dropped and then resupplied.

Now the whole truth. My father was (eventually) a low level technical sergeant (mostly a corporal) working in operations.

He spent most days typing orders. He leaned his rifle against his cot at night and against his desk during the day. (He had to have it with him but never fired it in action.)

His battle assignment consisted of sitting at the back of the plane and watching, with a pair of field glasses, as the101st jumped. He then went through debriefing when returning to base.

The Army had never used paratroopers before and really had no clue what was going to happen. They simply needed eyes, doing nothing but watching. Ironically by the time we had it mastered the war was over.

His planes did take fire (mostly flak) and his life was in danger during those periods, but not really enought to deserve all those battle points.

Now the punch line; his situation was brought about by good old racism.

His boot camp drill instructor was a Southern ******* who hated Italians (eye-talians). One day an Air Corp officer was looking for volunteers from the army ranks. (He was drafted in 1942 along with everyone else.) Having no clue what the Air Corp was, he was the first to step forward anyway; anything to get away from the ******* DI.

Results: he ended up with a lucky horse shoe shoved up his ass. He was part of every major engagement the 101st was in and got all their battle points without the (with some) risk.

A front seat view of the war; the best years of his life.

P.S. He also, before Overlord, use to drop black -ops (resistance fighters) into France, circa 1943. ***

One night he stepped onto plane, not with his regular crew. There was a large hole cut in the middle of the floor with four operatives sitting with their feet dangling over the edge. Dressed in black and black face one of the operatives asked if he spoke French. He said no and they proceeded to ignore him and talked to eachother in French.

As they flew through the dark into France my father suddenly realized one of the operatives was a woman.

Eventually the light went on and they slipped off into the dark. They must of been using black chutes because my father couldn't see anything.

When the plane returned to England my father waited to be debrief but it never happened.

He would make several more of these flights (but no more women), never got debrief and never understood his purpose, except that maybe they just wanted someone in the back of the plane. He was always alone.

Finally I was able to figure something out. There was a famous female resistance fighter who became known as "Ike's girl" because of the great things she did with the resistance. The **** caught her and sent a photo of her naked, to Eisenhower after they had tortured her, before she was executed. She is on Wikipedia.

Because of the location and timing of the drop for her last mission, (coupled with my father being at that base at that time) I think there is a good chance she was the woman my father heard talking that night.

*** EDITED Spring 1944 - sorry about that.

Great, great story. Where you're going to be and what you're going to see is a product of pure chaos in wartime. Thanks for sharing this buddy.

[The Old LefHook]

"The toughest Man Alive," is an old notion, kiddies, and a common saying about the heavyweight champion a few generations ago, not something I am particularly trying to define, though that is where it naturally proceeds to. I was merely alluding to it.

I did state that I thought the heavyweight champion was not the toughest man alive, and never was. I stand behind that speculation.

Wispy says the most important contribution to a hand-to-hand artist's repertoire is boxing technique. I probably have no argument with that, but am not altogether certain. He thinks it adapts well to street fighting too.

Pure boxers seldom win in an MMA ring. And sure, you can create a set of rules under which the boxer wins most of time. But they better get one of Margie's rough-and-tumble artists right away, or be slaughtered. Boxer's cannot get a good solid hit on someone rushing them low with the intent of tackling them. In MMA you can bend as low as you want, not just to the waist. Rabbit punches are still illegal.

[QueensburyRules]

"The toughest Man Alive," is an old notion, kiddies, and a common saying about the heavyweight champion a few generations ago, not something I am particularly trying to define, though that is where it naturally proceeds to. I was merely alluding to it.

I did state that I thought the heavyweight champion was not the toughest man alive, and never was. I stand behind that speculation.

Wispy says the most important contribution to a hand-to-hand artist's repertoire is boxing technique. I probably have no argument with that, but am not altogether certain. He thinks it adapts well to street fighting too.

Pure boxers seldom win in an MMA ring. And sure, you can create a set of rules under which the boxer wins most of time. But they better get one of Margie's rough-and-tumble artists right away, or be slaughtered. Boxer's cannot get a good solid hit on someone rushing them low with the intent of tackling them. In MMA you can bend as low as you want, not just to the waist. Rabbit punches are still illegal.

- - A stiff knee into tuffy's diving face suffices to render him in ICU for stabilization before reconstruction surgery.

Or just shove his ugly mug for some embarrassing canvas burns.

Simples...

[KidDinamita]

Anyone can be tough, but is everyone skilled enough to fight, control the ring, breathing etc? skills usually will always beat toughness