Interesting things about Marcianos style

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  • them_apples
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    #1

    Interesting things about Marcianos style

    I think I figured out why Rocky had so much success. Interestingly enough, the way Rocky is talked about today is quite close to how he was talked about in his day. He kept knocking fools out though, however.

    One key point i noticed, that is probably Rocky's greatest asset outside of his heart / character. His short arms. 67 reach. for a man who's 5 ft 10 and his weight, these are stubs. Pacquiaos reach is the same and he's 5 ft 6 and a natural featherweight.

    Anyways, in close rocky has a huge advantage.

    1) His short reach gives him tons of leverage inside, he is hitting his opponents much harder than they are used to inside that close, so close in fact some of them can't even throw proper punches at him. He's doesn't even have to use a lot of savvy sometimes, it's that much of an advantage in terms of speed AND power. Where someone like Toney or Charles uses head movement to create openings, Rocky often times simply just throws blow for blow or at the same time, because his punches are traveling a much shorter distance and landing much harder than someone with their arms smothered. This is oldschool ring smarts! straight up plain old logic. this might give him the case as the greatest inside fighter ever due to his genetic advantage.

    2) His small size. Here's the thing: we often attribute small size as being a disadvantage - especially in the heavyweight class. Really though, it's only a disadvantage if you are weaker. Rocky is small for a heavyweight, in fact he's even small for a man 188 lbs. However, he's very strong. In most of the footage he's giving up size even to former light heavyweights, but he's always stronger. He's thick boned but short limbed. He's structured like a solid heavyweight but his square footage is small so he doesn't weigh that much. his small size just makes him very awkward and harder to hit, it's not something you would see in the heavyweight division, or even prepare for - because when someone is that much smaller than you, you are supposed to be stronger. its all in the footage.

    3) He beat 3 great former light heavyweights, and he didn't have a size advantage (or at least certainly nothing to make note of). Some of them even weighed more than him correct me if I'm wrong. Nobody else did this. If you are going to chirp him for being small, at least give him credit for beating guys his size who happened to be the best ever at it.

    Even in the Ali vs Rocky simulation, ali is about 240 lbs, rocky around the same although fatter and smaller considerably. One thing to notice though is how strong he is, you can tell by the collision and impact of their movements in the ring. He's seems very strong and heavy handed.


    I noticed once rocky get's inside, nobody can hang with him - this furthers my stance that Rocky beats Frazier and Tyson. He's got a huge advantage inside and Frazier will only fight one way.

    let me know what you think, should we stop underrating Rocky? maybe.
    Last edited by them_apples; 04-19-2022, 10:32 PM.
  • markusmod
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    #2
    I wonder how far Pacquiao would have gotten back then

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    • Ivich
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      #3
      Originally posted by them_apples
      I think I figured out why Rocky had so much success. Interestingly enough, the way Rocky is talked about today is quite close to how he was talked about in his day. He kept knocking fools out though, however.

      One key point i noticed, that is probably Rocky's greatest asset outside of his heart / character. His short arms. 67 reach. for a man who's 5 ft 10 and his weight, these are stubs. Pacquiaos reach is the same and he's 5 ft 6 and a natural featherweight.

      Anyways, in close rocky has a huge advantage.

      1) His short reach gives him tons of leverage inside, he is hitting his opponents much harder than they are used to inside that close, so close in fact some of them can't even throw proper punches at him. He's doesn't even have to use a lot of savvy sometimes, it's that much of an advantage in terms of speed AND power. Where someone like Toney or Charles uses head movement to create openings, Rocky often times simply just throws blow for blow or at the same time, because his punches are traveling a much shorter distance and landing much harder than someone with their arms smothered. This is oldschool ring smarts! straight up plain old logic. this might give him the case as the greatest inside fighter ever due to his genetic advantage.

      2) His small size. Here's the thing: we often attribute small size as being a disadvantage - especially in the heavyweight class. Really though, it's only a disadvantage if you are weaker. Rocky is small for a heavyweight, in fact he's even small for a man 188 lbs. However, he's very strong. In most of the footage he's giving up size even to former light heavyweights, but he's always stronger. He's thick boned but short limbed. He's structured like a solid heavyweight but his square footage is small so he doesn't weigh that much. his small size just makes him very awkward and harder to hit, it's not something you would see in the heavyweight division, or even prepare for - because when someone is that much smaller than you, you are supposed to be stronger. its all in the footage.

      3) He beat 3 great former light heavyweights, and he didn't have a size advantage (or at least certainly nothing to make note of). Some of them even weighed more than him correct me if I'm wrong. Nobody else did this. If you are going to chirp him for being small, at least give him credit for beating guys his size who happened to be the best ever at it.

      Even in the Ali vs Rocky simulation, ali is about 240 lbs, rocky around the same although fatter and smaller considerably. One thing to notice though is how strong he is, you can tell by the collision and impact of their movements in the ring. He's seems very strong and heavy handed.


      I noticed once rocky get's inside, nobody can hang with him - this furthers my stance that Rocky beats Frazier and Tyson. He's got a huge advantage inside and Frazier will only fight one way.

      let me know what you think, should we stop underrating Rocky? maybe.
      Moore ,Charles yes,who was the third great lhvy he beat I Y O? Size advantage ? Height yes? Weight no. Discounting the quarter pound here or there against Moore Lastarza etc Marciano was the heavier man in14 of his fights.Most importantly what he had was an age advantage.
      How do you know Tyson and Frazier,"couldn't hang with him inside?"They would be the two best short swarmers he would ever fight. Modern sized heavies of any class would tie him up and lean on him.until the referee broke them up,many of the older guys he fought just succumbed to his nonstop attrition. He was a grinder.I still pick him to beat Frazier but I thinkTyson stops him.Too fast too strong .imo
      Last edited by Ivich; 04-20-2022, 08:33 AM.

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      • Bundana
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        #4
        Prime Tyson had around 30 lbs of pure muscle on him... not to mention superior hand-speed! With his come-forward style, I have a hard time imagining Rocky lasting more than a couple of rounds against a young Tyson.

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        • StarshipTrooper
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          #5
          Originally posted by them_apples
          I think I figured out why Rocky had so much success. Interestingly enough, the way Rocky is talked about today is quite close to how he was talked about in his day. He kept knocking fools out though, however.

          One key point i noticed, that is probably Rocky's greatest asset outside of his heart / character. His short arms. 67 reach. for a man who's 5 ft 10 and his weight, these are stubs. Pacquiaos reach is the same and he's 5 ft 6 and a natural featherweight.

          Anyways, in close rocky has a huge advantage.

          1) His short reach gives him tons of leverage inside, he is hitting his opponents much harder than they are used to inside that close, so close in fact some of them can't even throw proper punches at him. He's doesn't even have to use a lot of savvy sometimes, it's that much of an advantage in terms of speed AND power. Where someone like Toney or Charles uses head movement to create openings, Rocky often times simply just throws blow for blow or at the same time, because his punches are traveling a much shorter distance and landing much harder than someone with their arms smothered. This is oldschool ring smarts! straight up plain old logic. this might give him the case as the greatest inside fighter ever due to his genetic advantage.

          2) His small size. Here's the thing: we often attribute small size as being a disadvantage - especially in the heavyweight class. Really though, it's only a disadvantage if you are weaker. Rocky is small for a heavyweight, in fact he's even small for a man 188 lbs. However, he's very strong. In most of the footage he's giving up size even to former light heavyweights, but he's always stronger. He's thick boned but short limbed. He's structured like a solid heavyweight but his square footage is small so he doesn't weigh that much. his small size just makes him very awkward and harder to hit, it's not something you would see in the heavyweight division, or even prepare for - because when someone is that much smaller than you, you are supposed to be stronger. its all in the footage.

          3) He beat 3 great former light heavyweights, and he didn't have a size advantage (or at least certainly nothing to make note of). Some of them even weighed more than him correct me if I'm wrong. Nobody else did this. If you are going to chirp him for being small, at least give him credit for beating guys his size who happened to be the best ever at it.

          Even in the Ali vs Rocky simulation, ali is about 240 lbs, rocky around the same although fatter and smaller considerably. One thing to notice though is how strong he is, you can tell by the collision and impact of their movements in the ring. He's seems very strong and heavy handed.


          I noticed once rocky get's inside, nobody can hang with him - this furthers my stance that Rocky beats Frazier and Tyson. He's got a huge advantage inside and Frazier will only fight one way.

          let me know what you think, should we stop underrating Rocky? maybe.
          Here's something to look for in the films. His best punch was his overhand right: Marciano's athletic career started in baseball where he played catcher. He threw that overhand right like a catcher throws a baseball: He took an arm motion that was reflexive to him through constant repetition and adapted it for the ring.

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          • Bundana
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            #6
            Originally posted by them_apples
            I think I figured out why Rocky had so much success. Interestingly enough, the way Rocky is talked about today is quite close to how he was talked about in his day. He kept knocking fools out though, however.

            One key point i noticed, that is probably Rocky's greatest asset outside of his heart / character. His short arms. 67 reach. for a man who's 5 ft 10 and his weight, these are stubs. Pacquiaos reach is the same and he's 5 ft 6 and a natural featherweight.

            Anyways, in close rocky has a huge advantage.

            1) His short reach gives him tons of leverage inside, he is hitting his opponents much harder than they are used to inside that close, so close in fact some of them can't even throw proper punches at him. He's doesn't even have to use a lot of savvy sometimes, it's that much of an advantage in terms of speed AND power. Where someone like Toney or Charles uses head movement to create openings, Rocky often times simply just throws blow for blow or at the same time, because his punches are traveling a much shorter distance and landing much harder than someone with their arms smothered. This is oldschool ring smarts! straight up plain old logic. this might give him the case as the greatest inside fighter ever due to his genetic advantage.

            2) His small size. Here's the thing: we often attribute small size as being a disadvantage - especially in the heavyweight class. Really though, it's only a disadvantage if you are weaker. Rocky is small for a heavyweight, in fact he's even small for a man 188 lbs. However, he's very strong. In most of the footage he's giving up size even to former light heavyweights, but he's always stronger. He's thick boned but short limbed. He's structured like a solid heavyweight but his square footage is small so he doesn't weigh that much. his small size just makes him very awkward and harder to hit, it's not something you would see in the heavyweight division, or even prepare for - because when someone is that much smaller than you, you are supposed to be stronger. its all in the footage.

            3) He beat 3 great former light heavyweights, and he didn't have a size advantage (or at least certainly nothing to make note of). Some of them even weighed more than him correct me if I'm wrong. Nobody else did this. If you are going to chirp him for being small, at least give him credit for beating guys his size who happened to be the best ever at it.

            Even in the Ali vs Rocky simulation, ali is about 240 lbs, rocky around the same although fatter and smaller considerably. One thing to notice though is how strong he is, you can tell by the collision and impact of their movements in the ring. He's seems very strong and heavy handed.


            I noticed once rocky get's inside, nobody can hang with him - this furthers my stance that Rocky beats Frazier and Tyson. He's got a huge advantage inside and Frazier will only fight one way.

            let me know what you think, should we stop underrating Rocky? maybe.
            This huge advantage Rocky had in close, against opponents not all that much bigger than himself... how would that work against today's huge heavyweights, in your opinion? Which of The Ring's Top-10, as of right now (April 9), do you think he would he be able to grind down with his superior stamina, heart, and inside work?:

            Champ: Fury
            1. Usyk
            2. Joshua
            3. Wilder
            4. Whyte
            5. Parker
            6. Ruiz Jr
            7. Ortiz
            8. Joyce
            9. Hrgovic
            10. Sanchez

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            • billeau2
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              #7
              Originally posted by them_apples
              I think I figured out why Rocky had so much success. Interestingly enough, the way Rocky is talked about today is quite close to how he was talked about in his day. He kept knocking fools out though, however.

              One key point i noticed, that is probably Rocky's greatest asset outside of his heart / character. His short arms. 67 reach. for a man who's 5 ft 10 and his weight, these are stubs. Pacquiaos reach is the same and he's 5 ft 6 and a natural featherweight.

              Anyways, in close rocky has a huge advantage.

              1) His short reach gives him tons of leverage inside, he is hitting his opponents much harder than they are used to inside that close, so close in fact some of them can't even throw proper punches at him. He's doesn't even have to use a lot of savvy sometimes, it's that much of an advantage in terms of speed AND power. Where someone like Toney or Charles uses head movement to create openings, Rocky often times simply just throws blow for blow or at the same time, because his punches are traveling a much shorter distance and landing much harder than someone with their arms smothered. This is oldschool ring smarts! straight up plain old logic. this might give him the case as the greatest inside fighter ever due to his genetic advantage.

              2) His small size. Here's the thing: we often attribute small size as being a disadvantage - especially in the heavyweight class. Really though, it's only a disadvantage if you are weaker. Rocky is small for a heavyweight, in fact he's even small for a man 188 lbs. However, he's very strong. In most of the footage he's giving up size even to former light heavyweights, but he's always stronger. He's thick boned but short limbed. He's structured like a solid heavyweight but his square footage is small so he doesn't weigh that much. his small size just makes him very awkward and harder to hit, it's not something you would see in the heavyweight division, or even prepare for - because when someone is that much smaller than you, you are supposed to be stronger. its all in the footage.

              3) He beat 3 great former light heavyweights, and he didn't have a size advantage (or at least certainly nothing to make note of). Some of them even weighed more than him correct me if I'm wrong. Nobody else did this. If you are going to chirp him for being small, at least give him credit for beating guys his size who happened to be the best ever at it.

              Even in the Ali vs Rocky simulation, ali is about 240 lbs, rocky around the same although fatter and smaller considerably. One thing to notice though is how strong he is, you can tell by the collision and impact of their movements in the ring. He's seems very strong and heavy handed.


              I noticed once rocky get's inside, nobody can hang with him - this furthers my stance that Rocky beats Frazier and Tyson. He's got a huge advantage inside and Frazier will only fight one way.

              let me know what you think, should we stop underrating Rocky? maybe.
              Yes you hit on some technical truisms. Ill tell you one interesting thing I learned about Marciano... well let me backtrack: I came in with an open mind. Marchegiano first enlightened me by making an argument for the rarity of Marciano... going back through so many eras. I always felt march's arguments to be well reasoned and this one was no exception.

              Then I noticed that Marciano has footage where he is commenting on his own fights... what a gift if we listen! And wouldn't you know it...His central point and concern often revolved around fighting out of a crouch. To Marciano this allowed him to be defensively responsible and break down his opponents at will. Yes, there is a difference between weight and actual size in some respects. A pitbull is not necessarily big... but is built for fighting a certain way. Marciano was tuned like a pitbull when fighting... get in to a position where leverage is your friend, and stay low while outside so you do not get hit.

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              • QueensburyRules
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                #8
                Originally posted by them_apples
                I think I figured out why Rocky had so much success. Interestingly enough, the way Rocky is talked about today is quite close to how he was talked about in his day. He kept knocking fools out though, however.

                One key point i noticed, that is probably Rocky's greatest asset outside of his heart / character. His short arms. 67 reach. for a man who's 5 ft 10 and his weight, these are stubs. Pacquiaos reach is the same and he's 5 ft 6 and a natural featherweight.
                - - Manny is natural, traditional welterweight. Surprised U didn't say he was a natural flyweight

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                • QueensburyRules
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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Bundana

                  This huge advantage Rocky had in close, against opponents not all that much bigger than himself... how would that work against today's huge heavyweights, in your opinion? Which of The Ring's Top-10, as of right now (April 9), do you think he would he be able to grind down with his superior stamina, heart, and inside work?:

                  Champ: Fury
                  1. Usyk
                  2. Joshua
                  3. Wilder
                  4. Whyte
                  5. Parker
                  6. Ruiz Jr
                  7. Ortiz
                  8. Joyce
                  9. Hrgovic
                  10. Sanchez
                  - - None of those fights would be sanctioned today unless Rocky agreed to come in at his natural street weight that he never fought at.

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                  • Ivich
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                    #10
                    Originally posted by QueensburyRules

                    - - None of those fights would be sanctioned today unless Rocky agreed to come in at his natural street weight that he never fought at.
                    Marciano fought as high as 192lbs

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