Im very confused about Ezzard Charles resume

[Ivich]

I think there was just an effort on the part of HW's to be in the best condition possible, not necessarily to drain off weight. They fought at their best weights, where they felt their strongest and could go the distance. Take into consideration the different body types (meso, ecto, endo) and there is no exact science that works for every fighter.

Jim Brady, Jeffries manager had fits trying to get him to fight at a several pounds heavier weight .
The books of the time expressly mention those heavies dehydrating to cut weight.

[Ivich]

ive heard stories of them coming in with limited water and food to avoid cramps and be lighter, but nobody was purposely coming in dry of mouth and feeling like garbage, that defeats the purpose of training. Theres been a lot of fighters and a lot of fights in history so maybe somebody did that one time but it wasnt common practice. Even Duran, for how brutal it was cutting weight in the second bout (during camp it made him irritable) but on fight night he stuffed his face with steak and juice.

I'm referring solely to heavyweights who had no need to make a target weight.

[GhostofDempsey]

A good smaller boxer with will beat a bigger boxer with poor skills?
Well up to a point,but would say Marvin Hagler beat Valuev? Ray Robinson beat Chris Arreola?
If you want an example where your premise falls down. Here it is;
Primo Carnera 270lbs vTommy Loughran184lbs.
Q Who was the better by far boxer?
Q Who won the fight?
At some point SIZE DOES MATTER.

There will always be exceptions. Loughran was a natural LHW, and on the downslope of his career when he met Carnera.

Go back to Jack Johnson and look at the size advantage he had over his best wins and we see natural middleweights and much smaller LHW and HW fighters getting wrangled around, so in that instance you are correct, bigger Johnson had every advantage of either size and/or experience over fighters like Ketchel, Langford, Burns, Ross, Flynn, McVey, Jeannette.

[Ivich]

There will always be exceptions. Loughran was a natural LHW, and on the downslope of his career when he met Carnera.

Go back to Jack Johnson and look at the size advantage he had over his best wins and we see natural middleweights and much smaller LHW and HW fighters getting wrangled around, so in that instance you are correct, bigger Johnson had every advantage of either size and/or experience over fighters like Ketchel, Langford, Burns, Ross, Flynn, McVey, Jeannette.

Ross,and McVey were heavier than Johnson.
Jeffries 227 1 inch taller
Kaufman191 2 inches taller
Moran gave his weight as 203 same height
Jeannette was 5 '10.5" and from190 to200lbs
Flynn was 195,5lbs
Johnson fought plenty of bigger men.
Klon***e
Jeffords
Munroe
Griffin
Martin
Black Bill
Armstrong
Everett
Russell
Kennedy
McVey
Hart
Felix
Willard
Ferguson
Hartwell
Compare the respective sizes and weights of his opposition to any other champion before Joe Louis.
I don't see you castigating Jim Jeffries ,a bigger man all round than Johnson for the size of his opponents!
How about Rocky Marciano's opposition? Sullivans? Corbett's? Burns?

I wonder why that is?
Hypocrisy fueled by hate.
NB Loughran beat the following leading heavyweights Sharkey,Baer,Braddock, Risko,Levinsky,Uzcudun,*****.Schaaf,Godoy,Levinsky ,Ettore .Griffiths,

[them_apples]

A good smaller boxer with will beat a bigger boxer with poor skills?
Well up to a point,but would say Marvin Hagler beat Valuev? Ray Robinson beat Chris Arreola?
If you want an example where your premise falls down. Here it is;
Primo Carnera 270lbs vTommy Loughran184lbs.
Q Who was the better by far boxer?
Q Who won the fight?
At some point SIZE DOES MATTER.

Nobody says size isn’t a factor. Its one factor among many they people put way too much emphasis on. I dont know what point of loughrans career he was at, but he was a natural 175. I also dont know his style too well (gotta study him closer). I do know that Jack Dempsey, a few lbs heavier (naturally probably 10-15) would crush Carnera in a few rounds. So size is only a small factor.

ALSO. The way weight classes are made, the human body doesnt grow the same proportionately as weights scale up. If you scaled a featherweight up it would be a giant sturdy toddler. A lot of short light heavies are actually built stronger than a tall basketball player esque heavyweight for example. Bone thickness, skull thickness, tendons etc. people seem to have completely forgotten all the other things and focus on weight and height as the be all end all. Look at michael Jordans build and look at George Foremans build. Close to the same prime weight, but Foreman is built completely different, head and neck twice as wide, flat featured, deep browed (protects eyes). Thick wrists and bones.

[GhostofDempsey]

Ross,and McVey were heavier than Johnson.
Jeffries 227 1 inch taller
Kaufman191 2 inches taller
Moran gave his weight as 203 same height
Jeannette was 5 '10.5" and from190 to200lbs
Flynn was 195,5lbs
Johnson fought plenty of bigger men.
Klon***e
Jeffords
Munroe
Griffin
Martin
Black Bill
Armstrong
Everett
Russell
Kennedy
McVey
Hart
Felix
Willard
Ferguson
Hartwell
Compare the respective sizes and weights of his opposition to any other champion before Joe Louis.
I don't see you castigating Jim Jeffries ,a bigger man all round than Johnson for the size of his opponents!
How about Rocky Marciano's opposition? Sullivans? Corbett's? Burns?

I wonder why that is?
Hypocrisy fueled by hate.
NB Loughran beat the following heavyweights Sharkey,Baer,Braddock .

You keep floating this lie that Johnson was only 185 pounds. For most of his prime he was > 200 and up to 235 or better. He stood about 6'1".

Kaufman was a blacksmith with a decent punch and no boxing skills. Look at them side by side, he was a rail, he was KO'd 5x in a 29 fight career--he went the distance with Jack and he could only win the title from Jack by KO only, that was a stipulation. McVey was 19 years old when they fought, and not heavier than Jack. He was also 3" shorter. Flynn was 5'9", Ross was 5'7" as was Burns.

So make up your mind...does size matter or not? You seem to think so when it comes to Carnera/Loughran, but not for ole Jack.

[Ivich]

Nobody says size isn’t a factor. Its one factor among many they people put way too much emphasis on. I dont know what point of loughrans career he was at, but he was a natural 175. I also dont know his style too well (gotta study him closer). I do know that Jack Dempsey, a few lbs heavier (naturally probably 10-15) would crush Carnera in a few rounds. So size is only a small factor.

ALSO. The way weight classes are made, the human body doesnt grow the same proportionately as weights scale up. If you scaled a featherweight up it would be a giant sturdy toddler. A lot of short light heavies are actually built stronger than a tall basketball player esque heavyweight for example. Bone thickness, skull thickness, tendons etc. people seem to have completely forgotten all the other things and focus on weight and height as the be all end all. Look at michael Jordans build and look at George Foremans build. Close to the same prime weight, but Foreman is built completely different, head and neck twice as wide, flat featured, deep browed (protects eyes). Thick wrists and bones.

The difference being Dempsey hit like very few men under 200lbs have ever hit maybe Fitz,Langford and Marciano out of the champions.
Loughran's style can be capsuled in two words,left jab.he had zero power due to bad hands.
I believe a man of 210lbs with the weight distributed correctly ie not like Ruiz's is big enough to beat any man.The extremely limited Wilder has proven he can beat men significantly heavier,the problem for the smaller heavies is when the bigger guys have ability that corresponds to their own,then size becomes a factor.
Mickey Walker said he liked fighting the bigger guys because they were so much slower,thats okay when they are of the quality of Bear Cat Wright,when they are as good as Max Schmeling and have significant power it becomes a different ball game.
You mentioned in another post you sparred with class men, did you ever spar with any appreciably bigger than yourself? I did and found I couldn't move them with punches that would have an effect on welters and middles.The biggest man I ever fought was 6 '3" and about 215/220lbs I beat him ,but if he had any ability he would have murdered me. I sparred with an area lhvy champ we were friends and he wasn't looking to hurt me, ,concentrating most of his punches around the body and chest area.and wearing big gloves,2 rds thats all.The next day I had a job getting out of bed! I thought someone had been stamping on me in my sleep.

[them_apples]

The difference being Dempsey hit like very few men under 200lbs have ever hit maybe Fitz,Langford and Marciano out of the champions.
Loughran's style can be capsuled in two words,left jab.he had zero power due to bad hands.
I believe a man of 210lbs with the weight distributed correctly ie not like Ruiz's is big enough to beat any man.The extremely limited Wilder has proven he can beat men significantly heavier,the problem for the smaller heavies is when the bigger guys have ability that corresponds to their own,then size becomes a factor.
Mickey Walker said he liked fighting the bigger guys because they were so much slower,thats okay when they are of the quality of Bear Cat Wright,when they are as good as Max Schmeling and have significant power it becomes a different ball game.
You mentioned in another post you sparred with class men, did you ever spar with any appreciably bigger than yourself? I did and found I couldn't move them with punches that would have an effect on welters and middles.The biggest man I ever fought was 6 '3" and about 215/220lbs I beat him ,but if he had any ability he would have murdered me. I sparred with an area lhvy champ we were friends and he wasn't looking to hurt me, ,concentrating most of his punches around the body and chest area.and wearing big gloves,2 rds thats all.The next day I had a job getting out of bed! I thought someone had been stamping on me in my sleep.

yeah the problem with boxing is if your opponent respect you, you can beat them up. I did spar and still spar boxers even as much as 50-60 lbs heavier, but they arent skillful and are often scared, even if you cant tell from the outside, when you are in the ring you can. They react to every feint. So actually good point, if the guys a big lug with no skills hes actually just a punching bag. My favorite build was a short jacked giy who decides to take up boxing. They are usually the biggest punching bags, followed by body builders who cant avoid the heavyweight division (main reason why I roast muscle bound lifted heavyweights). Even worse the emotional inexperienced guys that try to be agressive. If you have a mean streak these are the guys you gotta counter as hard as you can. Then they respect you and then you beat them up every single time and thus goes the real work. The best is when you befriend and experienced pro and you work together. Then you never get emotional if someone gets hurt and you learn because your friends wont mind hitting you hard. Im from Toronto so gyms are full of misfits, weirdos and people dealing with security issues. And of course the odd pro who just chose it to make a living I suppose.

the hardest punch I ever took was from my buddy, he was a heavyweight who won the golden gloves 2x. We were always competitive but he kept growing. We got into a fight one day and both hit eachother but he rocked my jaw so hard my eyes saw crossed for 15 seconds like the rocky movie for real.

I know he hit hard because I saw him go blow for blow with a certain middleweight that beat glen Johnson and almost beat Jeff Lacy and went 12 w hopkins. Wont mention names.

so in my honest experience, the fighter themselves mattered way WAY more than size.

as for Dempsey, well he coulda been 190 or he could have been 290. But he chose 190.

[Bundana]

yeah they are blown up fighters, the old timers trained down. Probably why most new fighters have glass jaws, also because they fight less

What are you trying to say here... that oldtimers had better chins than more recent fighters??

[mrbig1]

Sometimes skill, heart, chin, can overcome weight. A guy like Evander or Ezzard Charles comes to mind. I think Gene Tunney is a better fighter than Lennox Lewis. Tunney couldn't beat Lewis on his best day. So, there's saying that a good big man can beat a good little man is true a lot of time. There is also a saying it's not the size of the dog in a fight but size of the fight in the dog is also true. Marciano was a small HW. You would have to kill him to take his title. 49 fighters have found out the hard way.