The level of ability of an average opponent...Using Sonny Liston as an example.

[billeau2]

I get half of this but some of it just baffles me. Here's what I mean. The description of Boxing as "obviously corrupt". That I get, in the way that greedy, self serving business people are forever squeezing the life out of the sport in exchange for cash grabs, crapping all over the sport and reducing the fanbase in exchange for a semi - profitable quarter. The crappy cards being peddled to addidict level hardcore fans like fentinol is where that trend has brought us. Sustainability being of no concern to these hacks, it's hardly worth notice that such users die off. Even so, I'd caution about the use of a term like "obviously Corrupt" that might question the authenticity of the fights.
Fighers who take no shortcuts to victory like choking, kicking below the belt or hyperextension of a joint have earned the right to respect.

I really get lost when I read things like boxing described as a "sport of highly ritualized and unrealistic combat where the best fighters will not even engage each other anymore except verbally" Followed by disappointment that it "still draws big numbers".
MMA has its parentage in pro wrestling, Mirikan matches, Vale Tudo, RINGS, the Gracie Challenge and the like; while Boxing was, in Greek tradition, founded by Apollo the Sun God. The delta in the relative importance, to say nothing of the gap in their intrinsic dignity is, as seen when comparing any two occupations, reflected in the enormous difference in their championship level payrate. Both Boxing and MMA have rules that place them well apart from real assault. MMAs broader rules succeed more to change the ashtetic and "gay it up" than they do to make it "More Real" or, less "ritualized". In MMA a kicker can strike below the belt, a puncher may not. A grappler operates with an impunity in MMA that isn't offered them on the combat field, where getting that cozy will always invite immediately the bites and eye gouging that are not your favorite option for an outcome. Those maiming counters indeed may not stop your skilled close quarters attack, but in "highly stylized" MMA, you operate without that maiming risk reality even being present. it's unreal. I stop short of claiming boxing is "better" or that Grappling, headbutts, knees, elbows, sweeps, shoots, chokes, bites, throws, groin attacks, eye attacks, etc don't factor extensively in a real fight, or if you want your spectator sports "Real". Of course they do. And of course there is Value in learning, using and the appreciation of more combat techniques versus less; but if you can drop an ******* where he stands with a quick, hard, accurate one-two and immediately leave the room, that is almost always your very best option. And even in the training of MMA fighters, everybody knows that plain old Boxing is the best thing to deliver that. If you want to watch real violence, that's your thing. If you like the clean, pure fight where guys dont end up "nuts in they face with panties oun", as Bernard Hopkins, worth over $40 million this year from that "Highly stylized fighting" once famously said...that's boxing.
That.....is how Boxing has survived all the abuse.

You and Margiano... both bring up the Greeks and it is with great pleasure that I read such posts. I have learned a lot from Margiano and his detailed descriptions of Greek epoches. You bring up Apollo and Apollo is very significant... I say this only because while it might sound like the latest drone from captian obvious, it does define a type of fistfighting with a very specific orientation. As opposed to if boxing was Dionysian... And appearances are deceptive: A fight looks Dionysian... chaos! But for one who understands, a fight, especially a fight in a controlled setting, is very much an ordered affair.

Apollo is of the sun... He probably has an existence that in ancient times was predicated, affected by Horus. The Sun does not represent order so much as... it is order! A Catholic Priest was boasting of his God one late evening, and an Aboriginal was heard to say "well... your God is fanciful indeed, but I guarantee you that if you wait up with me a few more hours, you will see my God rising, as he does everytime." The Sun orders everything... Time itself "Horus" reinvents himself as he becomes "Hours" (Ho-urs) which chart his assention across the heavens.

So while Dionysis is of the wild, chaotic, that which cannot be contained, or ordered... Apollo is the opposite principle. And for boxing to be of Apollo basically means that it is meant to affirm virtues that are means/ attainable through the human community. The ability of a man to control his wits during a confrontation shows mastery... So while it seems superficial to fight for glory, it is a way to set an example, to show human potential, to infuse order in what appears to be chaos... a battle.

It almost has a universal aspect... the connection between combat and the Sun. Shintoism talks about Samurai going into the hills and waiting for the Tengu mountain demons to reveal sacred knowledge... the mountains? the place highest on the Earth, that is closest to the sun... that sun venerated by the Shinto Priests.

[The Old LefHook]

Modern muscled-up fighters (such as Joshua) have thighs shaped like cement mixer tanks. Cleveland Williams had just a touch of this look too. Liston did not have this. Look at the tapes. Sonny even appears slightly bird-legged for a man of his muscularity. He was not, really, because I have seen other footage that gives a better view of his legs and, of course, they were muscular. But under today's training regimens Sonny would almost certainly have larger legs with THAT SHAPE to the thighs.

Those smaller legs are probably right in line with the out-of-vogue pugilistic philosophy of coming in as lean and mean as possible. One thing is for certain, they did not have legs like that in boxing way back when, now they do. Is there actually an advantage to cement mixer thighs? Would Liston benefit from them at all?

[DeeMoney]

Modern muscled-up fighters (such as Joshua) have thighs shaped like cement mixer tanks. Cleveland Williams had just a touch of this look too. Liston did not have this. Look at the tapes. Sonny even appears slightly bird-legged for a man of his muscularity. He was not, really, because I have seen other footage that gives a better view of his legs and, of course, they were muscular. But under today's training regimens Sonny would almost certainly have larger legs with THAT SHAPE to the thighs.

Those smaller legs are probably right in line with the out-of-vogue pugilistic philosophy of coming in as lean and mean as possible. One thing is for certain, they did not have legs like that in boxing way back when, now they do. Is there actually an advantage to cement mixer thighs? Would Liston benefit from them at all?

Legs are the starting point of the kinetic chain involved in throwing a punch. So in a relative sense, having more powerful legs (more muscle) would allow for someone to create more force and throw a more powerful punch.

Of course, boxing is a sport that requires great stamina, and carrying extra muscle around means carrying extra weight. This in turns places a greater load, relatively speaking, on the fighter and can cause more problems with endurance.

To me this in a general sense is the debate as to whether its a sprint or a marathon, and finding the balance between the two.

[QueensburyRules]

Modern muscled-up fighters (such as Joshua) have thighs shaped like cement mixer tanks. Cleveland Williams had just a touch of this look too. Liston did not have this. Look at the tapes. Sonny even appears slightly bird-legged for a man of his muscularity. He was not, really, because I have seen other footage that gives a better view of his legs and, of course, they were muscular. But under today's training regimens Sonny would almost certainly have larger legs with THAT SHAPE to the thighs.

Those smaller legs are probably right in line with the out-of-vogue pugilistic philosophy of coming in as lean and mean as possible. One thing is for certain, they did not have legs like that in boxing way back when, now they do. Is there actually an advantage to cement mixer thighs? Would Liston benefit from them at all?

- - Insert Deyonce with Cement Mixer Legs here____________!

[Willie Pep 229]

- - Insert Deyonce with Cement Mixer Legs here______AJ______!

Not in character, not in style, but physically isn't it Joshua?

Or is that what your saying?

[billeau2]

Modern muscled-up fighters (such as Joshua) have thighs shaped like cement mixer tanks. Cleveland Williams had just a touch of this look too. Liston did not have this. Look at the tapes. Sonny even appears slightly bird-legged for a man of his muscularity. He was not, really, because I have seen other footage that gives a better view of his legs and, of course, they were muscular. But under today's training regimens Sonny would almost certainly have larger legs with THAT SHAPE to the thighs.

Those smaller legs are probably right in line with the out-of-vogue pugilistic philosophy of coming in as lean and mean as possible. One thing is for certain, they did not have legs like that in boxing way back when, now they do. Is there actually an advantage to cement mixer thighs? Would Liston benefit from them at all?

Its relative... One of my favorite punchers is Mike Weaver. The guy was one big muscle lol. Most punchers are not overly muscled really... or if they are it is long muscles like Foreman, or Liston. But Weaver defies the stereotype.

Power in punching is assumed to come from A PLACE... But in fact? there are different ways of generating punching power. Weight is massively overlooked. Its different to punch hard and have your weight centered versus having your weight over your front leg. Speed is of course another generator, and then there is torque, how much one can bring together the kinetics of the spine, the weight dropping and the exstension on the punch.

[billeau2]

Legs are the starting point of the kinetic chain involved in throwing a punch. So in a relative sense, having more powerful legs (more muscle) would allow for someone to create more force and throw a more powerful punch.

Of course, boxing is a sport that requires great stamina, and carrying extra muscle around means carrying extra weight. This in turns places a greater load, relatively speaking, on the fighter and can cause more problems with endurance.

To me this in a general sense is the debate as to whether its a sprint or a marathon, and finding the balance between the two.

Having stronger legs means a better connection to the ground and the ability to twist the trunk of the body with more force. These forces are magnified considerably when we consider the ability of a person to put their weight forward, extend the punching arm, and drop the weight, or let the stepping foot land simultaneously with the landing of the blow.

[QueensburyRules]

Not in character, not in style, but physically isn't it Joshua?

Or is that what your saying?

- - AJ physically top to bottom more robust and athletic than Deyonce in every endeavor not to mention the considerable IQ advantage.