The level of ability of an average opponent...Using Sonny Liston as an example.

[billeau2]

So. When we evaluate talent, particularly in the premier division in boxing, what does the ability of an average opponent tell us? In this fight Bert Whitehurst is Liston's opponent. Whitehurst lost many fights... Yet, if we look at the tape, the fight, the man throws many punches, moves very well, and has poise in the ring. He is a very skilled opponent. If one looks at Liston for example, many of his opponents seem to be very skilled. Despite not being well known, the average opponent of Liston, if we let our observations dictate our opinion, shows tremendous boxing ability. I will post a few of his fights...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0Ak...ortLegendsXIII

Liston versus Willie Besmanoff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rek2...ersInFullColor

Now lets take an average opponent for Vlad Klitsko: Alex Leapai.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O00W...t%27swhyMMA%21

Another average opponent for Klitsko Kubrat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iaxm...annel=BoxingTV

Now... Look and compare and NOTHING should be needed to be said. The difference in the following categories related to two average opponents for two Heavyweight champions: Just follow along on the categories below if the point is not painfully obvious here lol.

1) Footwork
2) Conditioning
3) Assortment of punches thrown
4) Fighting ranges displayed
5) Ring tactics, generalship
6) General skill of the craft, how skills are integrated and used

The point here being: the average skill of a contender in the heavyweight division, related to the ability of a heavyweight champ, and to the skills used in the square circle. Would anyone after watching these fights mistake the ability of Liston based on Liston having guys with little name recognition on his resume? NOTICE: I am not even speaking about KLitsko per se... Not my point here, no interest in engaging in that debate. I used Klitsko, I could have used almost any champ from after Patterson.

[markusmod]

It's very hard to compare guys of then to guys of now, since guys of modern era are so much bigger. Size doesn't always equal skill, but skill doesn't always overcome size.

[Willow The Wisp]

Another good post. I've begun to establish a list of posters of quality to watch and you're on it. That and a dime will get you a cup of coffee. So this might have been a movement by movement examination of middleweights instead, which would circumvent the well taken point about expanding heavyweights.
Sonny Liston 6'1" 218
Bruce Whitehurst. 6'0" 192
Willi Besmanoff 5'11" 201
Wladimir Klitschko 6'7" 247
Kubrat Pulev 6'4.4" 247
Alex Leapai 6'0" 248
I'm certain all that has occured to you.
Still, if we gave the same critical look at Paul Pender, Joey Giardello, Dick Tiger, Henry Hank, Hank Casey against GGG, Jermall Charlo, Jaime Munguia, Demetrius Andrade, Chris Eubank Jr., are we not seeing a lesser but evident trace of the same thing? GGG being the exceptional exception? More of a distinction as we draw further back to the 50s, the 40s, the 30s???
This is in line with what all of the old era transcendent trainers said almost without exception

[billeau2]

Another good post. I've begun to establish a list of posters of quality to watch and you're on it. That and a dime will get you a cup of coffee. So this might have been a movement by movement examination of middleweights instead, which would circumvent the well taken point about expanding heavyweights.
Sonny Liston 6'1" 218
Bruce Whitehurst. 6'0" 192
Willi Besmanoff 5'11" 201
Wladimir Klitschko 6'7" 247
Kubrat Pulev 6'4.4" 247
Alex Leapai 6'0" 248
I'm certain all that has occured to you.
Still, if we gave the same critical look at Paul Pender, Joey Giardello, Dick Tiger, Henry Hank, Hank Casey against GGG, Jermall Charlo, Jaime Munguia, Demetrius Andrade, Chris Eubank Jr., are we not seeing a lesser but evident trace of the same thing? GGG being the exceptional exception? More of a distinction as we draw further back to the 50s, the 40s, the 30s???
This is in line with what all of the old era transcendent trainers said almost without exception

Yeah size has occurred, but I think it is entirely overestimated. I think a lot of guys today also come in heavy and would probably be a lot closer to the older fighters if they were in better fighting condition.

Its a great point about using a reified weight class... I just think that the heavyweight division is where the rubber always meets the road: It is an open division where trends that change in all boxing will carry to the mythical "top" of the hierarchy. Of course anyone who looks at the sport with clear eyes will notice the best fighters are in the divisions with a mean proportion to the size of most people... thats just logical understanding... More competition = best fighters.

[billeau2]

It's very hard to compare guys of then to guys of now, since guys of modern era are so much bigger. Size doesn't always equal skill, but skill doesn't always overcome size.

True... but look at someone like Klitchko's first opponent... That guy could easily lose a lot of weight. This happens a lot with modern fighters... fat and muscle. Its a benefit to come in light for a fight... that is often overlooked.

[Willow The Wisp]

Yeah size has occurred, but I think it is entirely overestimated. I think a lot of guys today also come in heavy and would probably be a lot closer to the older fighters if they were in better fighting condition.

Its a great point about using a reified weight class... I just think that the heavyweight division is where the rubber always meets the road: It is an open division where trends that change in all boxing will carry to the mythical "top" of the hierarchy. Of course anyone who looks at the sport with clear eyes will notice the best fighters are in the divisions with a mean proportion to the size of most people... thats just logical understanding... More competition = best fighters.

I understand. Heavyweights are purely representitive of the evolution, overfed populations packing on the pounds and all.
And yes, the size of the talent poor matters alot.
There is the measure of global population, and there is professional participation (obviously different things). Regarding the latter, the total number of pros who've had a fight somewhere in the world during the past 12 months, by weight division; breaks down like this (Note that in the Covid planet the numbers are lowered against previous years, and note that the numbers are for today, 31 January, 2022 and are fluid as fighters time out, re list as active and debut, and lastly; consider that medium adult male weights vary considerably between countries):

Heavyweight - 1,224
Cruiserweight 200 - 1,038
Light Heavyweight 175. - 1,044
Super Middleweight 168 - 1,273
Middleweight 160. - 1,360
Super Welterweight - 1,757
Welterweight - 1,844
Super Lightweight - 1,913
Lightweight - 1,960
Super Featherweight - 1,414
Featherweight - 1,331
Super Bantamweight - 1,116
Bantamweight - 817
Super Flyweight - 613
Flyweight - 573
Light Flyweight - 319
Minimumweight. - 184

Quick observation? Tiny guy divisions are sparsely populated and feature few European and US fighters.

[Willie Pep 229]

I understand. Heavyweights are purely representitive of the evolution, overfed populations packing on the pounds and all.
And yes, the size of the talent poor matters alot.
There is the measure of global population, and there is professional participation (obviously different things). Regarding the latter, the total number of pros who've had a fight somewhere in the world during the past 12 months, by weight division; breaks down like this (Note that in the Covid planet the numbers are lowered against previous years, and note that the numbers are for today, 31 January, 2022 and are fluid as fighters time out, re list as active and debut, and lastly; consider that medium adult male weights vary considerably between countries):

Heavyweight - 1,224
Cruiserweight 200 - 1,038
Light Heavyweight 175. - 1,044
Super Middleweight 168 - 1,273
Middleweight 160. - 1,360
Super Welterweight - 1,757
Welterweight - 1,844
Super Lightweight - 1,913
Lightweight - 1,960
Super Featherweight - 1,414
Featherweight - 1,331
Super Bantamweight - 1,116
Bantamweight - 817
Super Flyweight - 613
Flyweight - 573
Light Flyweight - 319
Minimumweight. - 184

Quick observation? Tiny guy divisions are sparsely populated and feature few European and US fighters.

I suspect that the biggest numbers falling between Lightweight and Super Welterweight is do to it being a world wide stat - I'd be curious to see if it was just the USA and if the big numbers would then shift one weight class higher.

[DeeMoney]

I suspect that the biggest numbers falling between Lightweight and Super Welterweight is do to it being a world wide stat - I'd be curious to see if it was just the USA and if the big numbers would then shift one weight class higher.

I've always felt that part of that was, at least from an American perspective, is that there is less draw from other (non combat) sports for athletes of those size. If someone's fighting weight is 140, they are most likely too small to advance far as a basketball player, football player (maybe get a look at CB or slot on the d2 level), or baseball (even as a middle infielder). So there is less draw to pull the top athletes of this size in other sports.

[markusmod]

I suspect that the biggest numbers falling between Lightweight and Super Welterweight is do to it being a world wide stat - I'd be curious to see if it was just the USA and if the big numbers would then shift one weight class higher.

I side with Willie here.

[QueensburyRules]

- - The eastern Euro "Soviet" bloc turning pro along with the growing latino populations having more access to the US market has cut the US share of top fighters.

Thus far though, the vast Asian billions have a greatly reduced footprint in boxing as that is simply not a part of their culture.