Henry Armstrong would be disqualified for his style if he fought today

[QueensburyRules]

- -Rocky Juarez vs Zahir Raheem in the old Houston Astrodome;
https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Z...._Rocky_Juarez

Rocky the stubby guy buried his head into Zahir chest to wail body shots. All Zahir could do was pull his noggin down that the horrid Robert Gonzales would break and warn Zahir. Both undefeated prospects with Rocky the hometowner and Zahir from NYC and so both their supporters riled up because Gonzo keeps breaking the action.

I was in press row between Benny Henderson and his cuz, a collective near 800lbs of Grizzly protecting me, but like a Cali wildfire, fights breaking out all over up and down even in the 2nd level where guys were fighting next to a 2' tall railing the only protection from a 15 foot freefall to the concrete floor littered stadium seating. Prior I had been steeped in the substantial security team directly behind me bragging about their Pen ile implants, so I didn't figure on much professionalism out of them in a general riot.

Anyway in the fracas Benny and cuz were separated with me looking for the safest route to the exit. In a riot guys are gonna get whacked in the back of their heads by the metal folding chairs seating us or otherwise ganged up on. That delayed the fight, but the people continued to boo Gonzo that included Rocky supporters when action restarted. Rocky kept wailing no matter his head pulled down and Zahir with no plan B just couldn't keep him off. The excessive point deductions by Gonzo gave a stink the Rocky UD didn't deserve. Net result was I wasn't too keen on traveling to distant locales like Hildago County that my P.I. buddy told me has the highest rate of car theft and cross border smuggling than any other county in Texas.

So I went into a real job wiser to the undercurrents of boxing, my only regret not having Flattop ring me up for a marathon session prior and after a fight. Quite the character and tragically R.I.P. now.

[The Old LefHook]

So when a fighter is leading with the head, and the head comes into contact with the opponent... or when a fighter puts his head against a shoulder, or the chest this is illegal to you?

Going to agree to disagree. Elbows and a few butts now and then imo are part of professional prize fighting.

You just became a fckn idiot, that's all. It is illegal and you fckn know it.

[billeau2]

If you lead with your head, you commit a foul. Armstrong often led with his head. There's nothing to be confused about here.

There are shades of grey... What if I want to extend my head and protect it? Like Frazier did? And infighting demands that someone place the head somewhere. Slipping punches with the head leading is part of boxing. The real difference is when the head is used to strike.

[billeau2]

You just became a fckn idiot, that's all. It is illegal and you fckn know it.

Love you too Lefty. I didn't become an idiot, I have always been an idiot, you idiot. There are styles of fighting where you positon the head fowards to slip punches... That is allowed. And as I told Batts, you have to put the head somewhere in close... You pick the best place to put it. the head weights a lot and placement of it is integral to success.

[billeau2]

I'm not saying he is necessarily fouling...or at least it doesn't appear that he is intending to foul, but he does take a lot of liberty with his head.

In the video on the first page regarding his infighting, the commentator even shows that he sometimes used his head to turn an opponent's chin a certain direction to deliver a blow. Not by butting, but by pressing his head into the opponent's chin.

I mean it's not a tickling contest.....

This is a great post imo because it illustrates a central point about professional prize fighting. Let me preface the remainder of this post: There were trainers in the mid 1800s discussing similar issues...there is nothing new about making judgements about techniques, and what is allowed, not allowed, etc.

Fights generally are messy affairs. Even when someone uses a beautiful technique in the street, chances are its hard to spot. Fighting professionally you are fighting against an opponent who is aware of everythng you are trying to do... For example, throwing someone clean in a Judo tournament is virtually impossible. Even when executed, it does not look like a demonstrated technique... This means using tricks, little advantages, things that take advantage of elbows, your head, its part of the game. There is in fact a grey area for these technical points of leverage... In one sense you have to use them, they are there... you can't put them away. You cannot cut the head off to fight in a ring.

I think its so that people like Batts and Lefty have a point that somoene can seek to butt with the head. I just think that there is a grey area between using the head properly and going out of the way and using the head as a weapon to attack with. Its a tough call... If my head is there, and I choose to place it so I can manipulate their chin with it, is it butting? Or is it excellent leverage? I would say the latter. Is Frazier and others allowed to put the head first, and slip punches with the head in this area? I would say yeah it should be allowed... Its a style of fighting.

[HOUDINI563]

The other point would be that Armstrong fought 183 pro fights and was only DQed twice. Both DQs occurred early in his career. (within his first 45 bouts).

[Willie Pep 229]

The other point would be that Armstrong fought 183 pro fights and was only DQed twice. Both DQs occurred early in his career. (within his first 45 bouts).

True but the OP's question asked about today. I think standards have changed and I could see some refs giving him a hard night.

You (I) Could see with help from the commentator that he was using his head tactically and at least with the chosen highlights was quite effective.

But even if he wasn't butting there was so much head moment inside that I could see today's refs wanting (maybe wrongly) to prevent a head butt from happening, warning Armstrong to keep his head back and eventually taking points.

Maybe not!

A bunch of the highlights we saw were with Lou Ambers who went 1-1 with Armstrong - with Henry losing the second fight and the LW Title he won from Ambers by giving up FIVE rounds for low blows - so even then he wasn't thought of as a choir boy.

I think he has a hard time with today's referees.

[GhostofDempsey]

If Ward and Porter could get away with their tactics today, Armstrong would fit right in.

[HOUDINI563]

One fight does not a reputation make.

Armstrong was a terrific inside fighter. Puts anyone today to shame. Part of being a great inside fighter is being very rough, very active. That’s what you see from Armstrong. He completely smothers his opponents physically.

[JAB5239]

If Ward and Porter could get away with their tactics today, Armstrong would fit right in.

Hopkins was very ******* with the use of his head.