No hoper's in championship fights

[billeau2]

Let me start with a wink before I jump you.

You're using 20-20 hindsight - if the man climbed through the ropes it's because he believed he could win. Is it really your place to tell a man he may not try because you think he is not worthy?

Might as well have no fights. We'll just have 'think fights.' - I'll think, you'll think, they'll think . . . and then we'll announce the winner. This way nobody will get hurt.

That guy who climbed out of the crowd saw an opportunity to change his career.

Many thought Dempsey was a 'no hoper' against Willard; Braddock-Baer; Clay-Liston; Ali-Foreman; Spinks-Ali; Foreman-Moorer; Douglas-Tyson - hell many thought Pac-Man was a no hoper against Del La Hoya.

Would you have denied Patterson a rematch with Liston?

Who will ID these 'no hopers' for us? Should we deny these men the opportunity if they are willing to try?

If you 'think' it's wrong don't buy a ticket, but don't snatch away a man's dream because you feel he hasn't got a chance. It's his call to make not yours.

OK now that I have given you a hard time let me go along with you . . . Ferguson-Bowe should never have happened. Just because Mercer looked like crap was not a reason to put Jesse in the ring with Bowe. We all knew he didn't t belong there.

P.S. No one wants it said out loud. . . but the Patterson-Radamacher fight was a 'white' thing. That's why that happened. If Pete was a man of color that fight never happens.

Lol its a fair point... When I read Jab's intitial post the first image that popped into my head was the James Brad**** Max Baer fight. Its on my mind because I am kind of PO'ed that people are criticizing Caleb Plant for really going after Canelo... Some of the same themes: The Priests telling people to pray for Braddock's soul as Max might well kill him... Some of the same atavistic peanut gallery talking about how Cannelo will break Caleb's bones...

I do think there is a type of fight Jab is right about. The issue is at its heart kind of an ethical one... I could be just seeing it that way but the way I see it: Lets take the Hollyfield fight, his latest, as an example. When Holly is at the committee that sanctions him to fight, and decides if he should be allowed to, IMO is Primarily responsible in that chain if events. To me the ref has no right to stop the fight prematurely because he may think Holly, in particular is not doing well. I mean to a point... But the issue being: If your going to sanction a guy to fight, let him fight... Or don't!

ethically when any belt organization, medical committee, etc says a guy can fight, we should afford him every opportunity and assume he will try to win that fight at all costs. The buck should stop with them... Ethically you cannot have it both ways: either the guy is sanctioned, or there is a compelling reason why he should not be sanctioned.

[Willie Pep 229]

Lol its a fair point... When I read Jab's intitial post the first image that popped into my head was the James Brad**** Max Baer fight. Its on my mind because I am kind of PO'ed that people are criticizing Caleb Plant for really going after Canelo... Some of the same themes: The Priests telling people to pray for Braddock's soul as Max might well kill him... Some of the same atavistic peanut gallery talking about how Cannelo will break Caleb's bones...

I do think there is a type of fight Jab is right about. The issue is at its heart kind of an ethical one... I could be just seeing it that way but the way I see it: Lets take the Hollyfield fight, his latest, as an example. When Holly is at the committee that sanctions him to fight, and decides if he should be allowed to, IMO is Primarily responsible in that chain if events. To me the ref has no right to stop the fight prematurely because he may think Holly, in particular is not doing well. I mean to a point... But the issue being: If your going to sanction a guy to fight, let him fight... Or don't!

ethically when any belt organization, medical committee, etc says a guy can fight, we should afford him every opportunity and assume he will try to win that fight at all costs. The buck should stop with them... Ethically you cannot have it both ways: either the guy is sanctioned, or there is a compelling reason why he should not be sanctioned.

Fair points . . . In regards to The boldface . . .

I ran across this article in the NYT involving a referee named Charley White - he once, at MSG sometime in the 1910s stopped a Gans fight with a white Irish boy still on his feet . . . The crowd went insane and White was attacked and his head got busted open (eventually needing stitches to close the cut) but before leaving for hospital White insisted on addressing the crowd arguing that when a fight becomes uncompetitive it is his job to stop it and no matter what always will.

DIGRESSION: Charley White's rep was so good that when Johndon was told he had to choose a back up referee to Tex Rickard for his fight with Jeffries, the only white ref he would condescend to was Charley White.

[QueensburyRules]

Fair points . . . In regards to The boldface . . .

I ran across this article in the NYT involving a referee named Charley White - he once, at MSG sometime in the 1910s stopped a Gans fight with a white Irish boy still on his feet . . . The crowd went insane and White was attacked and his head got busted open (eventually needing stitches to close the cut) but before leaving for hospital White insisted on addressing the crowd arguing that when a fight becomes uncompetitive it is his job to stop it and no matter what always will.

DIGRESSION: Charley White's rep was so good that when Johndon was told he had to choose a back up referee to Tex Rickard for his fight with Jeffries, the only white ref he would condescend to was Charley White.

- -Gans only had one fight in 1909, and that's all she wrote.

KOed in 4 fights in the 1900s, the last two to Battling Nelson in 1908. Terry McGovern I pretty sure is of Irish extraction KOed him easily in 1900 in Chicago that the usual suspects were heavily irate about, claiming fix to this day. George Siler was that ref. Frank Erne a native of Switzerland pulled a TKO on him to start the 1900s in NYC. Charley White the ref. Here's the fight result, so if you click on Erne who had a short career, just scroll down to see Gan's name with a fight description, basically Joe asked the ref to stop the fight after a headbutt cut. Just think of the usual BS suspects screaming Joe was a quitter if he did that today.
https://boxrec.com/en/event/12114/18131

In between he put together some long win streaks in between a few intermittent decision losses that made his legend.

[Tatabanya]

George Foreman vs Jose Roman comes to mind.

Marvin Hagler vs Caveman Lee.

Kostya Tszyu vs the shell of Julio Cesar Chavez

Too many...

Naseem Hamed vs Said Lawal
Marco Antonio Barrera vs Paul Lloyd
Fernando Vargas vs Howard Clarke
Canelo Alvarez vs Avni Yildirim (or Rocky Fielding, if you prefer...)

The list goes on and on...

Personally speaking, I would definitely include Mike Tyson vs Bruce Seldon in there.

[Willie Pep 229]

- -Gans only had one fight in 1909, and that's all she wrote.

KOed in 4 fights in the 1900s, the last two to Battling Nelson in 1908. Terry McGovern I pretty sure is of Irish extraction KOed him easily in 1900 in Chicago that the usual suspects were heavily irate about, claiming fix to this day. George Siler was that ref. Frank Erne a native of Switzerland pulled a TKO on him to start the 1900s in NYC. Charley White the ref. Here's the fight result, so if you click on Erne who had a short career, just scroll down to see Gan's name with a fight description, basically Joe asked the ref to stop the fight after a headbutt cut. Just think of the usual BS suspects screaming Joe was a quitter if he did that today.
https://boxrec.com/en/event/12114/18131

In between he put together some long win streaks in between a few intermittent decision losses that made his legend.

Sorry I tried to pull the date and location out my ass and got egg on my face . . .

The fight was February 9th 1900 against Spike Sullivan TKO 14/25 and was at the Brooklyn Athletic Club - sorry I got lazy and sent you looking down a rabbit hole.

Boxrec will now confirm my story except that the NYT article gave more details about the cut and White's speech to the audience after the fight - the Police Gazette which Boxrec cites tells a slightly different story but similiar, about a black eye. The NYT has White going to hospital.

P.S. Spike Sullivan Not to be confused with Mike Twin Sullivan who Gans fought three times.

Again sorry for the lazy post.

[Willie Pep 229]

- -Gans only had one fight in 1909, and that's all she wrote.

KOed in 4 fights in the 1900s, the last two to Battling Nelson in 1908. Terry McGovern I pretty sure is of Irish extraction KOed him easily in 1900 in Chicago that the usual suspects were heavily irate about, claiming fix to this day. George Siler was that ref. Frank Erne a native of Switzerland pulled a TKO on him to start the 1900s in NYC. Charley White the ref. Here's the fight result, so if you click on Erne who had a short career, just scroll down to see Gan's name with a fight description, basically Joe asked the ref to stop the fight after a headbutt cut. Just think of the usual BS suspects screaming Joe was a quitter if he did that today.
https://boxrec.com/en/event/12114/18131

In between he put together some long win streaks in between a few intermittent decision losses that made his legend.

Ok my memory is really getting bad . . . I found the article but I can't post images since the upgrade.

NYT February 10th, 1900 "Fight Referee Assaulted"


White doesn't address the crowd but instead looks to be speaking to the press when he states he will always stop a fight when a fighter is "outclassed."

In fact the crowd was on White's side (or at least some of them, because they tried to attack White's assailant.)

I did the part about the cut and stitches correct; The Times says it was more than a black eye.