Tom O'Rourke: James J. Jeffries was Greatly Overrated. Agree or Disagree?

[Willie Pep 229]

What is the mechanism? How does wrapping type cut your opponent once encased within boxing gloves? Hard wrapping would hurt the fighters hands more so than anything else. Very little in between one’s knuckles and the wrapping. An inch and a half of horsehair filled gloves between the wrapping and the opponent’s flesh.

Yes I agree- it would seem if such an advantage existed it would manifest itself in the Resto-Collins manner. Busted tissue with great swelling. But that it would open large cuts seems speculative.

The posts that mention the bicycle tape tend to make references to deep cuts; it's the leather that rips the skin; great powerful KO blows don't usually cut. (Unless inside the mouth which usually denotes some kind of broken jaw, E.g. Foreman- Moorer)

IMHO making your hands harder with a special tape under the glove may make your punches hurt more and may result in more KDs but I don't see why it would cause more cuts to open. - Likely more bruising.

[travestyny]

What is the mechanism? How does wrapping type cut your opponent once encased within boxing gloves? Hard wrapping would hurt the fighters hands more so than anything else. Very little in between one’s knuckles and the wrapping. An inch and a half of horsehair filled gloves between the wrapping and the opponent’s flesh.

Maybe the soft gauze serves to protect the hands from the hardened tape. Either way, it's obvious that they do more damage through the gloves. There are too many examples of this being done (Kid McCoy, Gunboat Smith, now Bob Fitzsimmons) for it not to have any affect. Remember, horse hair moves. It's not like foam. That's why there were concerns fairly recently about horse hair gloves. It has no memory and can be manipulated so that it's pushed out of the way.

[billeau2]

I remember looking into this situation. What type of tape was used? How was it used? Its important to understand a few things off the bat here: What was called "electrical tape" back then was not what electrical tape has been since around 1946, when vinyl/plastics were used. The original electric tape had a rubber like compound, a drying agent, and was cloth like, with no luster. This electrical tape was probably similar to the tape used on wraps today given how athletic tape has the same texture. The tape did have an abrasive surface.

How would this work through a glove? My theory is that all these wrappings, potations (varnish, gas, etc) were mostly used to try to make the hands stronger. Any tape applied tightly would do what wraps do through the gloves, and stabilize the hand, and wrist bones of the hand/arm.

[HOUDINI563]

Why would any tape be harder than the hard bones of the knuckles? These knuckles wrapped to allow punching with full force.

Properly wrapped hands allow a puncher to throw their hardest blows with abandon. A hard tape would absolutely hurt the knuckles more so then an opponent. Very little padding between the knuckles and hard tape. An inch and a half of padding between the tape and the opponent.

The Collins bout if I remember correctly the trainer removed padding from the glove. Now that would do damage.

[HOUDINI563]

I own a pair of Everlast gloves, 6 oz, from the late 60’s. (unused) These are horse hair filled. No chance anyone is going to move the padding around in these gloves. Too tightly packed.

[travestyny]

I own a pair of Everlast gloves, 6 oz, from the late 60’s. (unused) These are horse hair filled. No chance anyone is going to move the padding around in these gloves. Too tightly packed.

Boxers have already stated objections with horse hair gloves. Mayweather and Jean Pascal come to mind. Pascal's trainer (Rus Abner...I'll try to find the video) at the time makes gloves himself and gave an interview regarding the problem with horse hair gloves.

Here is Rus Abner talking about it:

Also, here is a quote from Jeff Horn's trainer, Glen Rushton:

This changes the game," Rushton said. "This is the glove you have when you're not wearing a glove. It's a throwback to the past. This glove here is when I was a kid boxing, this was all that's around ... horse-hair gloves.

"The problem with horse hair is you can push it away. It absorbs sweat and liquid. You get slumps in there. You can't do that with latex foam. It doubles the shock through the glove. It's almost like a four-ounce glove.
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/boxing/...03-p4zd6e.html

This is McGregor's cutman:

“When boxing gloves were first used, they used to be stuffed with horse hair,” McCormack said. “So what happened is you could actually manipulate the horsehair, you could push it and bring your knuckles out through the horse hair. To stop that, they developed the foam padding what we’re used to now. That’s become the standard, but certain places still use the horsehair glove.

“There’s no actual rules against them, they’re still considered a legal boxing glove. Now, they’re not good for your hands, because you’re effectively only working with the wrap. As it gets wet, it moves around a lot more. I remember as an amateur we used to wear them, and you’d get hit, it could be the tenth fight with the same gloves and they’d get wetter and wetter. You’d get hit with the searing pain and the smell. They stunk.
https://themaclife.com/sports/differ...d-foam-gloves/

As for the damage that certain tapes can do thru the gloves, there are statements directly from fighters that went against guys who wore them. Willard talked about how he could feel hardened wraps through the glove. It was confirmed that he knew what he was talking about since Gunboat Smith admit to using insulation tape on his wraps. So that should serve as proof. Besides, why would boxers do it if it had no effect?

[billeau2]

Why would any tape be harder than the hard bones of the knuckles? These knuckles wrapped to allow punching with full force.

Properly wrapped hands allow a puncher to throw their hardest blows with abandon. A hard tape would absolutely hurt the knuckles more so then an opponent. Very little padding between the knuckles and hard tape. An inch and a half of padding between the tape and the opponent.

The Collins bout if I remember correctly the trainer removed padding from the glove. Now that would do damage.

Thats the thing, the real mechanics are in squeezing the bones together to reinforce them. Whether it be tape, or wraps, the tightness creates structural integrity. Its not really about the surface area of the material used to create the bind.

[Willie Pep 229]

Thats the thing, the real mechanics are in squeezing the bones together to reinforce them. Whether it be tape, or wraps, the tightness creates structural integrity. Its not really about the surface area of the material used to create the bind.

Loaded gloves is a real problem.; it's an exaggerated problem; a legendary problem that brings a wonderful romance to the game.

There has been something 'wrong' with every glove or wrapping in every championship fight ever. The latest Fury-Wilder II

If you believed it changed the course of boxing history it's because you want to believe it; if it changed the course of boxing history then it was suppose to. It is boxing history.

P.S. the use of "you" was not meant to mean you; meant it as rhetorical.

[billeau2]

Loaded gloves is a real problem.; it's an exaggerated problem; a legendary problem that brings a wonderful romance to the game.

There has been something 'wrong' with every glove or wrapping in every championship fight ever. The latest Fury-Wilder II

If you believed it changed the course of boxing history it's because you want to believe it; if it changed the course of boxing history then it was suppose to. It is boxing history.

P.S. the use of "you" was not meant to mean you; meant it as rhetorical.

Your point here is one I have really tried to express over the years posting here. I find that people always find ways to discount, to minimize any achievement that they don't like. So...Jones didn't REALLY bet up James Toney... Toney was not prepared, didn't train... And Foreman, he was sick in Zaire, not himself, etc etc,you get the idea. This rebuff takes many forms: it can involve wraps, training camps, almost anything.

I would implore people to consider two things: There probably has never been a match in history where both fighters had the best camp of their lives, had perfect lives at the time of the bout, were exactly even in career place, at the time of the bout, were absolutely at the same place physically and psychologically at the time of the bout.

The totality of circumstances imo has to be the criteria. If we look at the recent Dillon Whyte Povtkin fight, it is obvious that the Russian was not in good condition. It was not any one thing... Covid had ravaged him, we saw evidence of this in his condition, He had not been able to train properly... there was a totality of circustances including empirical proof, that Povatkin had some problems that affected his perormance.

Wraps are something that were apparently common place. A totality of circumstances would lead one to believe most fighters used some form of wraps to protect the hand, because if it broke, you were scre wed.

[cfang]

Jeffries is overated but not greatly. Overated as his record includes struggling wins over significantly sleighter and smaller men. His loss to johnson shouldn't count against him too much but jj was just a new level of boxer.