Tom O'Rourke: James J. Jeffries was Greatly Overrated. Agree or Disagree?

[travestyny]

Not sure, I never heard that story before. That guy telling you to get your facts straight reminds me of a line I heard from comic Jim Norton "Get your facts straight, cause he sure isn't". Could say that about characters like Adrian Adonis later on and Exotic Adrian Street haha.

I thought this was a great story

[GhostofDempsey]

Willie also told us that Dempsey declined because he wasn't in shape, though he had time to prepare. I don't think we need fact checkers to know that's what happened when numerous sources all say that's what was stated.

A basement scrap? This sounds like something Dr. Z would try to hang his hat on. He should have been a man and fought him in a ring when the challenge was first put forth. $20,000 for inexperienced McVey (his record would have actually been 14-4-2 according to boxrec...with 3 of the 4 losses being to Jack Johnson)? Why not? I don't see the issue.

Johnson fought and attempted to fight guys around his size. Jeffries called him a little fella compared to McVey...and he fought the McVey that Jeffries wouldn't. Jennette was in the high 190's when Johnson agreed to fight him. And we know he agreed to fight him for the title now, right?


By the way, you had no problem getting information from Clay Moyle's book....who revealed that the information he shared was from a NYTimes "anonymous" source. And you've also shared your own "anonymous sources" when they fit your agenda. So why keep going with that angle?

Which is why I said “legend has it”, if you read more boxing books instead of relying solely on unreliable news articles you would have known about it. The only reason I now reply with those sources is because those are 90% of what you hinge your arguments to, and authors like Moyle don’t rely solely upon those sources. That’s the difference.

Johnson’s BEST wins were against smaller opponents. Or opponents who were either green or washed up. Outside of Flynn, no other fighter he beat was considered prime or a HOF worthy fighter. McVey and Langford were barely 20 years old. McVey had less than ten fights, Jeannette less than twenty. Ketchel was a middleweight, Burns barely above middleweight, in fact he was smaller than Ketchel. The guy Burns beat to win the title, Marvin Hart, defeated Johnson when they were both evenly matched in terms of experience and age. Now you want to discredit Jeffries by insisting he needed to fight a 19 year old McVey who was 8-4, when he was fighting other champions and former champions who posed a bigger threat.

[travestyny]

Which is why I said “legend has it”, if you read more boxing books instead of relying solely on unreliable news articles you would have known about it. The only reason I now reply with those sources is because those are 90% of what you hinge your arguments to, and authors like Moyle don’t rely solely upon those sources. That’s the difference.

Johnson’s BEST wins were against smaller opponents. Or opponents who were either green or washed up. Outside of Flynn, no other fighter he beat was considered prime or a HOF worthy fighter. McVey and Langford were barely 20 years old. McVey had less than ten fights, Jeannette less than twenty. Ketchel was a middleweight, Burns barely above middleweight, in fact he was smaller than Ketchel. The guy Burns beat to win the title, Marvin Hart, defeated Johnson when they were both evenly matched in terms of experience and age. Now you want to discredit Jeffries by insisting he needed to fight a 19 year old McVey who was 8-4, when he was fighting other champions and former champions who posed a bigger threat.

I must be doing something right because I knew about Jeffries silly basement scrap challenge. But nice of you to assume what I do know and what I don't know. I've read Moyle's book on Langford as well as Unforgivable Blackness. Go and find out just how much information they get from Newspaper articles if you want. I've also read Dempsey's biography. I've also quoted various other books about boxing. I gave you quotes from Fleischer books, Paul Beston books, Charles Samuel, Randy Warren Roberts, Arne K. Lang. So what is the problem?

Once again, McVey had more fights than you guys knew about. He was not 8-4. He was 14-4-2, with 3 of those loses coming to Johnson. Marvin Hart got a gift decision. Burns had the title so of course he would fight him. He tried to fight Jennette later in his career and I've proven that. Tried to fight little Sam a number of times. Tried for another fight with McVea. All of this is clear but your bias against him won't allow you to admit it. That's crystal clear because you still can't stand to admit that the Jennette fight was for the championship after I've made it crystal clear that it was.


The only fighter of the time that can really brag about resume as far as I know were Langford, McVey, Jennette, and Wills. None of the other guys we discuss have a stellar resume besides maybe Johnson because he fought all of those guys, or accepted fights with all of them (meaning the Wills bout that was not allowed). Dr. Z believes Dempsey's best win was a 3 year hiatus Willard. So for all of the ragging on Johnson's resume, it looks better than the other guys we talk about here a whole lot. Especially when they've declined the cream of the crop fighters.

[ShoulderRoll]

Jeffries was a great athlete for his size. But his boxing skill was basic and his biggest wins came against guys he outweighed by over 30 lbs.

I've always maintained that stance even if it was unpopular, so it's nice to see period sources confirming it.

[HOUDINI563]

One can find anything they like searching through hundreds of newspaper articles over decades. You can “prove” any point you like. However looking over the vast history of Jeffries as champion it would be very hard to find another heavyweight champion with such universal praise. Jeffries was VERY highly thought of as a fighter.

[travestyny]

One can find anything they like searching through hundreds of newspaper articles over decades. You can “prove” any point you like. However looking over the vast history of Jeffries as champion it would be very hard to find another heavyweight champion with such universal praise. Jeffries was VERY highly thought of as a fighter.

It wasn't about a search to discredit Jeffries, and nothing will be proven here either way. It was just an article I ran into while looking over the Jeffries/Johnson aftermath, and some hall of fame boxers, trainers, and promoters gave their opinion. So it's only about opinions. Nothing more, nothing less. Otherwise, good point. He was indeed thought of highly. The question is...was he thought of too highly?

[ShoulderRoll]

I've always admired Bob Fitzsimmons for giving Jeffries a beating in their second fight, in defeat. Despite being 39-years-old and being outweighed by over 30 pounds.

But it turns out the infamous electrical tape made yet another appearance.



"No plaster was to be found inside the challenger’s gloves, but those watching in The Arena in San Francisco could be forgiven for thinking there was, as from the opening bell the smaller man inflicted a cruel beating on the champion. As early as the second round Jeffries was shedding blood as Fitzsimmons applied tremendous pressure, beating Jeffries to the punch over and over again. Rudy’s hard shots opened up deep cuts around both of Jeffries’ eyes and broke the champion’s nose. It was later revealed the challenger had in fact wrapped his hands with electrical tape instead of gauze, with no one from Jeffries’ camp objecting."

https://www.thefightcity.com/july-25-1902-jeffries-vs-fitzsimmons-ii/

[travestyny]

I've always admired Bob Fitzsimmons for giving Jeffries a beating in their second fight, in defeat. Despite being 39-years-old and being outweighed by over 30 pounds.

But it turns out the infamous electrical tape made yet another appearance.



"No plaster was to be found inside the challenger’s gloves, but those watching in The Arena in San Francisco could be forgiven for thinking there was, as from the opening bell the smaller man inflicted a cruel beating on the champion. As early as the second round Jeffries was shedding blood as Fitzsimmons applied tremendous pressure, beating Jeffries to the punch over and over again. Rudy’s hard shots opened up deep cuts around both of Jeffries’ eyes and broke the champion’s nose. It was later revealed the challenger had in fact wrapped his hands with electrical tape instead of gauze, with no one from Jeffries’ camp objecting."

https://www.thefightcity.com/july-25...itzsimmons-ii/

Another example of how wraps under gloves can rip up an opponent and cause extra damage. Great find!

[Greb5000]

Good finds

[HOUDINI563]

What is the mechanism? How does wrapping type cut your opponent once encased within boxing gloves? Hard wrapping would hurt the fighters hands more so than anything else. Very little in between one’s knuckles and the wrapping. An inch and a half of horsehair filled gloves between the wrapping and the opponent’s flesh.