Tom O'Rourke: James J. Jeffries was Greatly Overrated. Agree or Disagree?

[Dr. Z]

Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
And yet another thread that devolves into a Dempsey hate thread. What else is new? Lol

.

Yea I thought I made it pretty clear I was hi******* this thread. I don't like the OP one bit and I am stifling all discussion.

How can anyone call Jeffries a coward?

Hmmm, the OP, who I pretty much ignore at this point hates Jeffries and Dempsey. Might he not be a fan of Marciano or Klitschko too? I betcha. Enquiring minds want to know

[Dr. Z]

Did you read the article? Or maybe you didn't read it carefully.

It says Jeffries wanted to quit in the 5th round of the first fight with Fitzsimmons, and in the 18th round of his fight with Sharkey at Coney Island. Not in the same fight. That was apparently coming from his trainer several years before the Johnson fight. Why would what he tells his trainer be in the newspaper?

Also, it clearly says that he was supposed to fight Armstrong and O'Donnell on the same day. It also clearly mentions the broken thumb. His point was that O'Donnel was knocked out by George Dixon, so he thought Jeffries could push through. I won't say that's a fair assessment, but clearing up that's what is clearly mentioned.


You just assume they didn't like him because they were Irish? Delaney was his trainer vs. the Irish guy, wasn't he? I would assume that was before their falling out directly before the Johnson bout. Kinda seems like you just threw that out there.


Why do you think Jeffries passed up McVey? Or Johnson while he was champ? They were plenty big and skilled. He fought black boxers before, and even one while he was champ, tho the guy was like a "famine survivor," so why suddenly duck those two? What is your opinion?

Did you read my reply? Delaney and O'Rouke didn't like Jeffries, and their " article " is full errors " on weights and lacking footnotes. This is sour g****s at best. No wonder a hater like you recycles it.


No Jeffries wasn't close to quitting in round 5 vs Fitzsimmons, or round 18 vs Sharkey. Pure junk, and they don't even have a " story " for such nonsense.. Trainers are often quoted in the press. Duh. The reason you don't read anything close to what they are saying in the fight coverages is because its is false. Jeffries didn't like the liars in the press, he steered clear of the nonsense, expect for the false claim that Jack Munore had him down in 4 rounder. No-- he didn't but the fake news did lead to a real boxing match, which Jeffries destroyed him I'm 2 rounds. Jeffries by the way offered Sharkey a 3rd match. Guess who refused? O'Rourke's guy, that's who.

Yes, he was supposed to fight O'Donnell and Armstrong on the same say. A broken thumb in round one helped Armstrong last the distance and this article fails to mention that. Dixon Ko'd O'Donnell? Possible, but I don't see any evidence he did, at least in a real fight.

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/40141

I'd ask this cranky old timer for his source, and it better not be his best friend's brother's uncle saw it in a gym. O'Donnell was medicare anyway. Armstrong who was black and pretty big for his day ( Goes against the I won't fight a black opponent bunk that Jeffries haters incorrectly bring up ) was the better fighter and closer to his prime, and Jeffries picked him first beating him with a busted thumb. As as said he did not wear hand bandages.

McVey was how old when he wanted a title shot? What was his record at that point? Go ahead and list it. McVey lost three times in a row 1903-1904, and in fact quit boxing for a year in 1905! Facts, learn them sometime. When was he going to fight Jeffries 1902 when he had 4 total fights and had beaten no one. I think Jeffries had better options. Why should a teenager on a losing streak get a shot at the lineal heavyweight title? Do tell! Because his manager wanted it


By the way that " famine Survivor " beat Jack Johnson the same year he fought Jeffries in a 4 round match where he was floored a few times. Hank Griffin also was taller and blacker than Johnson himself. Yet Jack Johnson could not beat him in three tries. Insert your excuses here ________________ ____________ Meanwhile Jeffries beat that same Hank Griffin.....twice.


Like I said Jeffries had a falling out with his trainer as an active champion .Delaney was replaced by Tommy Ryan and the same things happened after Jerries beat Corbett.

[Marchegiano]

I dunno myself where I fall on Jeffries, but, by chance I just read Peter Maher thought he was overrated.

[Dr. Z]

Willie also told us that Dempsey declined because he wasn't in shape, though he had time to prepare. I don't think we need fact checkers to know that's what happened when numerous sources all say that's what was stated.

A basement scrap? This sounds like something Dr. Z would try to hang his hat on. He should have been a man and fought him in a ring when the challenge was first put forth. $20,000 for inexperienced McVey (his record would have actually been 14-4-2 according to boxrec...with 3 of the 4 losses being to Jack Johnson)? Why not? I don't see the issue.

Johnson fought and attempted to fight guys around his size. Jeffries called him a little fella compared to McVey...and he fought the McVey that Jeffries wouldn't. Jennette was in the high 190's when Johnson agreed to fight him. And we know he agreed to fight him for the title now, right?


By the way, you had no problem getting information from Clay Moyle's book....who revealed that the information he shared was from a NYTimes "anonymous" source. And you've also shared your own "anonymous sources" when they fit your agenda. So why keep going with that angle?

Get your facts straight!. McVey was a teenager. 18-19 year old novice in 1903. By 1904 he was 8-4. Exactly when was this press article printed? Why does a fighter with a losing record vs the best he fought and so young deserved a title shot?

By the end of 1904 SAM MCVEY QUIT BOXING, ( He was on a losing streak in 1903 ) only to return in 1906 a time Jeffries announced his retirement.

i pinged Clay. If he isn't posting ( I Think ) anymore there is nothing I can do, just be thankful he doesn't appear and mop the floor with you.

Johnson came looking for a fight. One was offered. HE RAN. Of course he wanted to be paid. Just get your @ss kicked, lie to the press, and you might had had one that pays.

Johnson's best wins, at least in my opninion happened when he was under 200 pounds. He won the title vs a 5'7" 168 pound man, and spceialized in hitting and holding shorter / lighter men for the most part. Does that impress you? He would not be able to fight that way in a modern rule setting, and he was often booed due to lack of action which would kill his chances of making $$$.

Dude, many boxers put forth challenges. At least Jeffries fought his best challengers. Johnson ducked Langford, Jeannette, and Mcvey as champion when they were mature heavyweights. Deal with and stop bottom fishing for what is not there.

[travestyny]

Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
And yet another thread that devolves into a Dempsey hate thread. What else is new? Lol

.


Hmmm, the OP, who I pretty much ignore at this point hates Jeffries and Dempsey. Might he not be a fan of Marciano or Klitschko too? I betcha. Enquiring minds want to know

All you have to do is ask. I quite like Marciano. I'm indifferent to Vlad Klitschko but liked him more by the end of his career. I quite liked Vitaly. Was rooting for him hard during the Lennox Lewis clash.

Does that help?


By the way, I don't hate Jeffries or Dempsey. I simply asked an opinion about what these guys said about Jeffries. And I haven't said much about Dempsey that you haven't said. Mainly that he ducked Harry Wills. That's not a reason to hate him.

[travestyny]

Did you read my reply? Delaney and O'Rouke didn't like Jeffries, and their " article " is full errors " on weights and lacking footnotes. This is sour g****s at best. No wonder a hater like you recycles it.


No Jeffries wasn't close to quitting in round 5 vs Fitzsimmons, or round 18 vs Sharkey. Pure junk, and they don't even have a " story " for such nonsense.. Trainers are often quoted in the press. Duh. The reason you don't read anything close to what they are saying in the fight coverages is because its is false. Jeffries didn't like the liars in the press, he steered clear of the nonsense, expect for the false claim that Jack Munore had him down in 4 rounder. No-- he didn't but the fake news did lead to a real boxing match, which Jeffries destroyed him I'm 2 rounds. Jeffries by the way offered Sharkey a 3rd match. Guess who refused? O'Rourke's guy, that's who.

Yes, he was supposed to fight O'Donnell and Armstrong on the same say. A broken thumb in round one helped Armstrong last the distance and this article fails to mention that. Dixon Ko'd O'Donnell? Possible, but I don't see any evidence he did, at least in a real fight.

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/40141

I'd ask this cranky old timer for his source, and it better not be his best friend's brother's uncle saw it in a gym. O'Donnell was medicare anyway. Armstrong who was black and pretty big for his day ( Goes against the I won't fight a black opponent bunk that Jeffries haters incorrectly bring up ) was the better fighter and closer to his prime, and Jeffries picked him first beating him with a busted thumb. As as said he did not wear hand bandages.

McVey was how old when he wanted a title shot? What was his record at that point? Go ahead and list it. McVey lost three times in a row 1903-1904, and in fact quit boxing for a year in 1905! Facts, learn them sometime. When was he going to fight Jeffries 1902 when he had 4 total fights and had beaten no one. I think Jeffries had better options. Why should a teenager on a losing streak get a shot at the lineal heavyweight title? Do tell! Because his manager wanted it


By the way that " famine Survivor " beat Jack Johnson the same year he fought Jeffries in a 4 round match where he was floored a few times. Hank Griffin also was taller and blacker than Johnson himself. Yet Jack Johnson could not beat him in three tries. Insert your excuses here ________________ ____________ Meanwhile Jeffries beat that same Hank Griffin.....twice.


Like I said Jeffries had a falling out with his trainer as an active champion .Delaney was replaced by Tommy Ryan and the same things happened after Jerries beat Corbett.

LMAO. You seem bothered by this. I would expect someone who makes a bunch of threads with bullshlt info about Jack Johnson to have tougher skin. All I did was ask an opinion about what was being said.

What makes you think Delaney and O'Rourke didn't like Jeffries at the time the statements were made? Again, O'Rourke said the Delaney statements made to him were from several years earlier. And I haven't seen anything about why O'Rourke would dislike him besides you apparently accusing him of being biased because he beat an Irish guy or something like that. I think we would need some more proof than that. Just like you basically implied that I'm a racist because I point out shortcomings with Dempsey. You're really reaching.

As for "errors," no one was expecting them to go back and calculate the exact weights. He said some of the opponents were outweighed by 50lbs. So what was it. 47 pounds? Ok. Is 3 pounds that much for you to get your panties in a knot over?

Fitzsimmons 172 / Jeffries 219.


That's fight number two. In fight number one, it was apparently 49lbs.

Sharkey does seem like it was more like a 30lb difference than 40 lbs. Ok. I think you can still discuss his points instead of being so techical that you make a big deal about a few pounds here and there.




Why would the trainer tell the press that his charge wanted to quit? It was said he mentioned it aside to O'Rourke. Seems that he would have went to the press with it if he really did hate him.



The article DOES mention that he had a broken thumb. Apparently you can't read...? I didn't know it was in round 1. Maybe that's O'Rourke's point. You just went 10 with the broken thumb. Now take out this guy that little George Dixon KOed. Seems that's what he was saying.


McVey was 14-2-2 and 19 years old in 1903. Jeffries didn't say he wouldn't fight him because he was too young. He said he wouldn't fight him because he's black...but you just claimed him not fighting black fighters was "bunk." I agree. He did fight black fighters. So why not take the $20,000 to fight Mcvea? Hell. Why not fight Johnson?


Johnson first won the colored title in what...1903? When he toyed with Jeffries little brother in 1902, he began trying to push for the fight, but it wasn't until he was the Black Heavyweight Champ in 1903 when the offers were coming in that the bigger Jeffries would duck.



So again, if it was "I won't fight a black fighter 'bunk'", then why not fight Johnson or McVea in 1903?



For all your criticism of O'Rourke, seems like your own information is shady since you claim Jeffries was willing to fight the winner of Johnson vs. Hart no matter who it was, but I have quotations from him that specifically say he would NOT fight if the winner was Johnson. Did he give contradictory statements somewhere? Possible. But I've no idea how you would have latched on to a statement of him saying he would fight Johnson when I'm sure there are more various statements from him that he would not. How could it be "bunk" that he wouldn't fight a black opponent when he specifically drew the color-line?

[Anthony342]

Yea, man. If I remember correctly, Haku was the scariest of all!!! lol

He was one of the only guys Andre The Giant was afraid of, along with legit tough guys Rick Rude and Bad News Brown. Rude was a bouncer and Brown a tae kwon do black belt.

[travestyny]

Get your facts straight!. McVey was a teenager. 18-19 year old novice in 1903. By 1904 he was 8-4. Exactly when was this press article printed? Why does a fighter with a losing record vs the best he fought and so young deserved a title shot?

By the end of 1904 SAM MCVEY QUIT BOXING, ( He was on a losing streak in 1903 ) only to return in 1906 a time Jeffries announced his retirement.

i pinged Clay. If he isn't posting ( I Think ) anymore there is nothing I can do, just be thankful he doesn't appear and mop the floor with you.

Johnson came looking for a fight. One was offered. HE RAN. Of course he wanted to be paid. Just get your @ss kicked, lie to the press, and you might had had one that pays.

Johnson's best wins, at least in my opninion happened when he was under 200 pounds. He won the title vs a 5'7" 168 pound man, and spceialized in hitting and holding shorter / lighter men for the most part. Does that impress you? He would not be able to fight that way in a modern rule setting, and he was often booed due to lack of action which would kill his chances of making $$$.

Dude, many boxers put forth challenges. At least Jeffries fought his best challengers. Johnson ducked Langford, Jeannette, and Mcvey as champion when they were mature heavyweights. Deal with and stop bottom fishing for what is not there.

You tell me to get my facts straight but you are saying he was 8-4. The fight was proposed in 1903 when he was 14-2-2. The article is from 11/5/1903. You claim Jeffries was willing to face black fighters but I have countless quotations from him that say otherwise, including regarding young McVea. Your guy was offered $20,000 and didn't want to go near it. Johnson was the only man to beat McVea to that point, but Jeff didn't want Johnson either. So if you are saying above that an offer was made to Johnson for Jeffries, I'm not buying that at all. You'll have to show the proof of it. He ran from a Jeffries offer? When?


You still duck me about the offers Johnson accepted for Langford/McVey, and Jeannette, so your bs about Clay and the fights Johnson ducked are irrelevant because you wouldn't duck me on the topic if it were false that he accepted to fight all of these guys. You know it and I know it. You'll have to deal with it until you grow a pair



By the way, were you impressed with Jeffries beating a 167 pound man lol

[travestyny]

He was one of the only guys Andre The Giant was afraid of, along with legit tough guys Rick Rude and Bad News Brown. Rude was a bouncer and Brown a tae kwon do black belt.

Was it also Rick Rude that was the arm wresting champ that used to dupe guys in the bar to take their money? I could be confusing him with someone else. Those oldschool wrestlers were all so interesting.

[Anthony342]

Was it also Rick Rude that was the arm wresting champ that used to dupe guys in the bar to take their money? I could be confusing him with someone else. Those oldschool wrestlers were all so interesting.

Not sure, I never heard that story before. That guy telling you to get your facts straight reminds me of a line I heard from comic Jim Norton "Get your facts straight, cause he sure isn't". Could say that about characters like Adrian Adonis later on and Exotic Adrian Street haha.