Tom O'Rourke: James J. Jeffries was Greatly Overrated. Agree or Disagree?

[travestyny]

But I believe NY already said no when Dempsey balked about the short date. I was aware of the Dempsey complaint about the short date but I thought it was getting too long of a post. In fact you don't need to use that obviously bias headline source you posted lol you can go to the NYT and find Dempsey complaining about the short time frame directly. It makes me wonder if Kearns ever even bothered to keep Dempsey in the loop. Kearns would throw out press releases daily almost all them going no where.

I don't see how the MSG match maker can be working directly for Rickard the facility is owned by the city and that guy works for the city.

Also later on an anti trust suit is brought against NY becuse there was too close of a conectuon between the Garden and the IBC. So it wouldn't surprise me if Rickard was lining the guy's pocket - it was Ruckard who was bringing the City and MSG its biggest fights but that is not working for him and doesn't neccesarily translate to Montreal.

Like I said I don't believe the Montreal fight was ever real from the get go - Kearns was blowing smoke up their as s as he did with the three different times he claimed he was ready to sign with Wlls in NY (1922) and never actually got to the bottom line. All smoke!

But in regards to Kearns keeping Ruckard out. Easy ask yourself where was Dempsey's next fight? Gibbons in Montana.

Why do you insist in buying into these anti-Dempsey news articles. They are so obviously bias; do you actually think that Dempsey was the one making any of these decisions?

The two times Dempsey actually tried to act on his own they were both no goes.

The Chicago contract - and it seems when Kearns made the mistake of leaving Dempsey alone in Europe he came back in January '22 announcing he signed to fight a rematch with Carpentier with some English promoters.

A few days later there was a very short PR by Kearns stating that no deal was signed in England. But I think you and I know Dempsey probably did sign.

I know you and the other anti- Dempsey posters like to use Dempsey's words against him but unless you understand the people around Dempsey - Kearns, Fitzsimmons, Rickard you don't have a handle of what was going on. Dempsey was never in charge his words are irrelevant.

Well whether he was working for Rickard or with Rickard, they were all a part of the same team. They worked for the "Garden Sporting Corporation," apparently. Here's another one that mentions the officials, including the matchmaker and Rickard, and how they were owed more from Dempsey when he refused their offer to fight in Montreal. Look at the last paragraph specifically which says how Dempsey owed more to Rickard than that.

New York Herald - June 18th, 1922

Seems to me that you keep trying to let Dempsey off the hook based on someone else. You said yourself that he claims he couldn't get into shape, right? Why should anyone blame Kearns for that? And again, Wills team was saying they were willing to take up this offer so I don't see the issue really, except that Dempsey declined it.

I'm not sure why it's considered biased if that's what happened.

[GhostofDempsey]

And yet another thread that devolves into a Dempsey hate thread. What else is new? Lol.

[travestyny]

And yet another thread that devolves into a Dempsey hate thread. What else is new? Lol.

Wasn't me this time!!! lol

[Anthony342]

lol. Just imagine being at a bar with those two around. Makes me think of some of the tales the WWE guys tell about their times out on the town!

The Tonga "Haku" Fifita ones are the best. Especially the ones about him breaking police handcuffs off. There's also one in an airport about him pulling out a guy's bottom teeth with his bare hands when someone called him a fake wrestler. One of the reasons you don't use "The F word" around wrestlers.

[Willie Pep 229]

Well whether he was working for Rickard or with Rickard, they were all a part of the same team. They worked for the "Garden Sporting Corporation," apparently. Here's another one that mentions the officials, including the matchmaker and Rickard, and how they were owed more from Dempsey when he refused their offer to fight in Montreal. Look at the last paragraph specifically which says how Dempsey owed more to Rickard than that.

New York Herald - June 18th, 1922

Seems to me that you keep trying to let Dempsey off the hook based on someone else. You said yourself that he claims he couldn't get into shape, right? Why should anyone blame Kearns for that? And again, Wills team was saying they were willing to take up this offer so I don't see the issue really, except that Dempsey declined it.

I'm not sure why it's considered biased if that's what happened.

OK - a different view . . . May 20th Dempsey arrives in New York from Europe and is informed by the Press that he is going to be fighting Wills in Montreal in July. He says no I am not, too soon. -- That is the quote your news articles are calling Dempsey a coward, 'running to California'. He was ambushed by the New York press at the dock. (NYT May20th, 1922)

On May 21st Rickard then informs the Press that Kearns says the fight is off. (NYT May21st 1922)

On May 24th Rickard informs the Press that Kearns is demanding a $500,000 guarantee and that he (Rickard) is not interested in trying to make a fight under those conditions. (Kearns is reacting to the fact that he blew the Carpentier fight and left $175,000 on the table because he wouldn't take the % Rickard had offered; the Press had back in July 1921 mocked Kearns for making such a bad deal. Dempsey got $300,000 for the fight, could have had $475,000, That's why Kearns was now asking $500,000 up front, to save face and also make it impossible for Rickard to make the fight.(NYT May 24th,1922)

Kearns never intended for the Montreal fight to happen. Dempsey got ambushed at the dock and called a coward by whom? NEW YORK! The NY Press, The MSG Corporation, the NYSAC -- see any connections yet? NEW YORK! . . . And here you are 100 years later hauling their hate water for them.

[Willie Pep 229]

And yet another thread that devolves into a Dempsey hate thread. What else is new? Lol.

Yea I thought I made it pretty clear I was hi******* this thread. I don't like the OP one bit and I am stifling all discussion.

How can anyone call Jeffries a coward?

[GhostofDempsey]

Yea I thought I made it pretty clear I was hi******* this thread. I don't like the OP one bit and I am stifling all discussion.

How can anyone call Jeffries a coward?

It’s the never ending effort to prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt while being fully invested in random, hundred year old news clippings, and for each story that attempts to make headlines tearing down Dempsey, there are as many or more that tell a different story. Same can be said of just about any other fighter of that era. I have seen the same recycled “sources” from him going on three years and dozens of threads now.

We have a difficult time proving which fighters of today ducked who or who used PEDs and who didn’t (Canelo's tainted meat, Floyd’s IV) and that’s with video, audio, firsthand accounts, and social media. Imagine how many liberties were taken by the press a century ago when they had no fact checkers, real-time video or television, and a news paper in every town that often picked up stories handed down over several sources, with each retelling of the story adding or omitting another fact or lie.

Jeffries had a loaded resume. He pulled himself out of a six year retirement, lost a hundred pounds, to fight a prime Johnson. As legend has it, he allegedly challenged Johnson to a scrap in the basement of his bar. Winner is the one who climbs out of it on his own two feet. Johnson declined. Not sure how much of that is myth or truth, but it was a fairly common practice in the day.

As to McVey, he had a record of 8-4 by the time Jeffries retired. Not the most compelling fight to make.

The criticism being levied upon Jeffries for beating on smaller men couldn’t be more ironic considering Johnson built his best wins on his distinct size advantage.

[travestyny]

The Tonga "Haku" Fifita ones are the best. Especially the ones about him breaking police handcuffs off. There's also one in an airport about him pulling out a guy's bottom teeth with his bare hands when someone called him a fake wrestler. One of the reasons you don't use "The F word" around wrestlers.

Yea, man. If I remember correctly, Haku was the scariest of all!!! lol

[travestyny]

OK - a different view . . . May 20th Dempsey arrives in New York from Europe and is informed by the Press that he is going to be fighting Wills in Montreal in July. He says no I am not, too soon. -- That is the quote your news articles are calling Dempsey a coward, 'running to California'. He was ambushed by the New York press at the dock. (NYT May20th, 1922)

On May 21st Rickard then informs the Press that Kearns says the fight is off. (NYT May21st 1922)

On May 24th Rickard informs the Press that Kearns is demanding a $500,000 guarantee and that he (Rickard) is not interested in trying to make a fight under those conditions. (Kearns is reacting to the fact that he blew the Carpentier fight and left $175,000 on the table because he wouldn't take the % Rickard had offered; the Press had back in July 1921 mocked Kearns for making such a bad deal. Dempsey got $300,000 for the fight, could have had $475,000, That's why Kearns was now asking $500,000 up front, to save face and also make it impossible for Rickard to make the fight.(NYT May 24th,1922)

Kearns never intended for the Montreal fight to happen. Dempsey got ambushed at the dock and called a coward by whom? NEW YORK! The NY Press, The MSG Corporation, the NYSAC -- see any connections yet? NEW YORK! . . . And here you are 100 years later hauling their hate water for them.

Or....since he was saying he was willing to fight Carpentier at any time, he could have used all the time he had left and got ready to give Wills his shot. Instead, he made an excuse and the fight didn't happen. That probably had something to do with anyone calling him a coward (which I didn't see anyone call him).

Kearns was in the press at this time saying that Dempsey would "fight anyone, anywhere, at anytime, but won't consider an American contract until he arrives in New York." Well.....there it was.

If Dempsey wanted the fight, then again, it seemed right there for him. He had time to prepare. This incident is not coincidence when you look at the entire history of this fight not being made. There is one common denominator to this fight not happening, and it's not Wills, not Rickard, and not Kearns.

[travestyny]

It’s the never ending effort to prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt while being fully invested in random, hundred year old news clippings, and for each story that attempts to make headlines tearing down Dempsey, there are as many or more that tell a different story. Same can be said of just about any other fighter of that era. I have seen the same recycled “sources” from him going on three years and dozens of threads now.

We have a difficult time proving which fighters of today ducked who or who used PEDs and who didn’t (Canelo's tainted meat, Floyd’s IV) and that’s with video, audio, firsthand accounts, and social media. Imagine how many liberties were taken by the press a century ago when they had no fact checkers, real-time video or television, and a news paper in every town that often picked up stories handed down over several sources, with each retelling of the story adding or omitting another fact or lie.

Jeffries had a loaded resume. He pulled himself out of a six year retirement, lost a hundred pounds, to fight a prime Johnson. As legend has it, he allegedly challenged Johnson to a scrap in the basement of his bar. Winner is the one who climbs out of it on his own two feet. Johnson declined. Not sure how much of that is myth or truth, but it was a fairly common practice in the day.

As to McVey, he had a record of 8-4 by the time Jeffries retired. Not the most compelling fight to make.

The criticism being levied upon Jeffries for beating on smaller men couldn’t be more ironic considering Johnson built his best wins on his distinct size advantage.

Willie also told us that Dempsey declined because he wasn't in shape, though he had time to prepare. I don't think we need fact checkers to know that's what happened when numerous sources all say that's what was stated.

A basement scrap? This sounds like something Dr. Z would try to hang his hat on. He should have been a man and fought him in a ring when the challenge was first put forth. $20,000 for inexperienced McVey (his record would have actually been 14-4-2 according to boxrec...with 3 of the 4 losses being to Jack Johnson)? Why not? I don't see the issue.

Johnson fought and attempted to fight guys around his size. Jeffries called him a little fella compared to McVey...and he fought the McVey that Jeffries wouldn't. Jennette was in the high 190's when Johnson agreed to fight him. And we know he agreed to fight him for the title now, right?


By the way, you had no problem getting information from Clay Moyle's book....who revealed that the information he shared was from a NYTimes "anonymous" source. And you've also shared your own "anonymous sources" when they fit your agenda. So why keep going with that angle?